Does getting Osama bin Laden justify enhanced interrogation techniques?
FROM CNN's Jack Cafferty:
Leon Panetta, head of the CIA, said earlier this week that intelligence collected from detainees who were waterboarded provided clues that helped the U.S. track down Osama bin Laden.
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Waterboarding, which is the simulated drowning of prisoners to get them to spill secrets, is no longer legal, thanks to President Obama. It was one of Obama's first acts as president.
The Bush Administration before him had been harshly criticized for what some said was legalizing torture. Panetta in the past has said that enhanced interrogation techniques like waterboarding is torture and is morally wrong. However, he also said the debate about the use of these techniques will continue.
Some former members of the Bush Administration and a handful of other Republicans were quick to defend the practice in the wake of Osama bin Laden's death.
Former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Justice Department official John Yoo and Congressman Peter King from New York have all said in interviews this week that information obtained through enhanced interrogation techniques used on prisoners, like waterboarding, was key to the successful raid on Osama bin Laden's Pakistani hideout.
However, none of these men is really in the position to know this for sure. And there's been no official statement or any proof that any information gained from prisoners by using these interrogation techniques ultimately led to the killing of Osama Bin Laden.
Here’s my question to you: Does getting Osama bin Laden justify the use of enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding?
Interested to know which ones made it on air?
Jamie in St. Louis:
Yes, even though I thought they were already justified. We should do whatever it takes to defeat these criminals. If we have to dunk someone's head under water a few times to keep some psychopath from killing innocent civilians then so be it.
Mark in Tucson:
Jack, is there actual proof that enhanced interrogation techniques were responsible for getting Bin laden? Who knows for sure? The answer to your question though is yes, but only in extreme and extraordinary cases or where time of the essence.
Dave in Phoenix:
On its face, it sounds like a good reason to promote torture. Let's call it torture, Jack. That's what it is. It's all good until this starts happening to our troops some day in the future, and Americans become all indignant about it.
Scott:
Hardball will never be tasteful for softballers. In the murder business, no more Mr. Niceguy. The covert invasion of a sovereign nation by U.S. Navy Seals in stealth aircraft under the cloak of darkness should bug softballers more than the waterboarding of terrorist prisoners, but I'm not hearing it.
Bill:
Hell, yes. Whatever it takes to save American lives. Those animals hate the West and all it stands for. They have no respect for any life or anybody but themselves.
Nancy in Tennessee:
Our military risk their lives everyday for us and we should carefully weigh what we are willing to do versus what in turn might be imposed on one our brave soldiers. Enhanced interrogation techniques are not justified and only a few have said this is what gave us Osama bin Laden ten years later.
Al in Delaware:
Torturing prisoners is a war crime period. I don't care what the results are. If Ahmadinejad or some other "villain of the month" tortured an American, we'd be crying for days. What a bunch of hypocrites we are. No wonder the rest of the world has no respect for us. We can't even stand up to the ideals we preach.
@jackcafferty on Twitter
I don't think torture is ever justified and would like to know the statistics on how much useful information has ever been rendered from it.
Under duress, most people are likely to say anything just to be left alone. Look at the cases here in the states where innocent people confess to crimes they didn't commit because they couldn't take the stress of long interrogations and sleep deprivation! Does some miracle occur during waterboarding that produces valuable intelligence? Someone will need to explan this to me.
When you are dealing with outlaws, and basically that is what terrorists are, the usual rules don't apply.
Yes. I never thought I would feel this way but I do.
No. Torture produces lies, not the truth.
Yes. These Islamist terrorists don't care about anyone but their crazy ideas. They will kill anyone who disapproves of their lifestyle and they want to control the world with 700 AD ideas! How crazy is that? They will torture US soldiers, diplomats, journalists and allied soldiers at the drop of a hat. We should continue to do it clandestinely since we do not want to upset Humanitarians who think everyone is NICE!
the answer is no. if enhanced interrogation worked they would of know about the location of obl tears ago in pakistan.
No it does not. Only lazy, intellectually defficient people resort to violence. Smart people use logical, methodical interrogation and persuation. See what Obama did? How does it compare with Bush's?
Jack,
We may never know the answer to this due to petty bickering between the parties. The Obama administration will never openly admit if any actionable intelligence was acquired through EIT's. It would fly in the face of their ideology. On the flip side we cannot just accept from former Bush administration officials that EIT's work. They certainly would never openly admit that this program was a failure.
It all comes to semantics too. What is torture? Our own local police officers question suspects for hours in an effort to wear them down in the hopes they will make a mistake, threaten them with long prison sentences or promise leniency for cooperation, often without the approval or authority to do so. Isn't this physocological torture?
Hardened ideologues like jihadists will not surrender information freely because a government interrogator speaks sternly to them. At some point leverage needs to be utilized in some form. The threat of confinement in US prisons that have much nicer amenities than a cave in Pakistan will not work here!
If enhanced interrogation techniques had worked, it would not have taken 10 years to find OBL. The USA should take the high road in the way that POWs are treated. Waterboarding did not necessarily bring about the info on OBL and should not be used.
First Jack my man, define "Advanced Interrogation Techniques" for me. If you mean water boarding or inflicting pain on prisoners to try and extract information NO. Unless you can prove that it REALLY does work. But lets be clear History is full of stories where the United States in time of war has done some horrible things. And I'm almost posiitve if I was witnessing my buddies getting killeed and mamed I would probably do some things I would not be proud of after the fact.
Unfortunately yes,but only as a last resort. I also would like to add that we are doing Pakistan a favor by letting the world know they weren't involved in the execution of Bin Ladin. Imagine the protests and bombings in that nation if his followers were to retaliate against the government there. Who knows,maybe this was also a part of the plan.
There is a world of difference in my view between using enhanced interrogation techniques on run-of-the-mill terrorism suspects and using them on admitted top echelon al-Quaida leaders, which seems to have been the actual case. Under those circumstances–with the huge potential for saving lives–I would call it absolutely justified!
tampa, fl Would someone please show me just where in our Constitution this is actually allowed? One of the several reasons we broke away from England was how they treated civilians and prisoners. Now we are doing the same thing in violation of all we hold true not to mention the Geneva Convention. It is time we hold all of our politicians accountable that allow this to happen.
Torture of terrorists has been outlawed by obama and the attorney general. If they are doing it they are liars and hypocrites which I suspect they are.
The interrogation techniques used by our country is just right for the people it's used on. Look at the record, over the last 10 years we have been safe because of the information gleamed fpr those animals we have caged up in our perfect Guantomo jail. Which by the way is not located In the good old U.S.A.
Let's put it this way :
It justifies removing fingers one by one if that produces saving American lives from the likes of these insects.
"Enhanced Techniques" ??
Give us ALL a break.
NO. I highly doubt that those who are out there "justifying the use of it" today knows for certain that the "Enhanced" tactics yielded the tip or whether normal techniques did. Endorsing those tactics is not what America should ever condone.
Jack, I've never had a problem with so called "enhanced interrogation techniques" in the first place if that's what it takes to make our country safe. After all, we are dealing with an outfit who doesn't mind sawing a human being's head off with a butcher knife on television and killing women and children to achieve thier goals. This "politically correct" pre-occupation has turned this nation into a bunch of pussies and hindered our pursuit of Al Quadi and the Taliban and I think that this bunch of "do gooders" should be put in uniform and sent to the front lines and see how humane they are then. I think you'd be surprised how fast they changed their views.
Jack: No. Most torture gets you nothing but lies, which an interrogator can not verify. Stick and carrot is a better procedure. For every true bit of information the interrogation receives something is given to the prisoner. Only good information gets rewarded, and bad information gets food or privilidges taken away.
Jack
Bush/Cheney used water torture as interogation methods that produced zilch for eight years. Obama banned the practice and ended the Iraq War and killed Bin Laden in 2 years and 3 months under the constant criticism of Shooter Dick Cheney. Proof is in the puddin Dick
I have no doubts Obama will draw down troops in Afghanistan leaving a base to police Arab Islamic Radicals.
First, we did not get bin Laden because of torture. Even former Sec. of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, has said so.
Second, torture violates Geneva Conventions as well as the Convention Against Torture, signed by President Reagan, and the latter leaves no wiggle room: "No execeptional cirucmstances whatsoever, wheter a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification for torture."
This is why so many of the Bush Administration cannot travel to other countries who are signatories of the document, for fear of arrest and prosecution.
I will leave that up to the experts and I don't mean the media or the politicians. Although we know they all think they know what's best and have no problem telling us over and over.
.
Absolutely not. By that standard, others would start to waterboard members of our armed services, because "we authorized it first."
America just doesn't torture.
Sure, as long as you apply it to the right people. We must not have interrogated any Pakistani government offials. Extraordinary rendition is wrong because we do it mostly on foreign soil.
No i don't think so Jack. The reality is that we would not want it done to any of our people if they were detained by any of our enemies so we should not do it to any that we catch of theirs. We play by a different set of rules. We are the guys wearing the white hats not the bad guys who blow up buildings by flying airplanes into them after slitting the crew members throats. That is not what we are about in America. We are the good guys not the evil villains. We must never lose sight of that no mater how desperate we become. If we cross that line then we are no better then our enemy.
nothing justifies torture!
Torture had nothing to do with getting OBL. The couriers nickname was discovered by phone surveilance. During waterboarding KSM was asked about the courier and he said he was retired. That's it.
Tortured 186 times and still protected his friend. Big whoop. All I know is the torture team had 8 years to find OBL and didn't. In fact closed down the search. The anti-torture team got it done in under 3 years with zero loss of american life, minimal expense and minimal collateral damage. Getting Saddam who wasn't even a real threat to us, cost thousands upon thousands of lives and all but destroyed our economy. I guess my answer is NO.
Jack, If we or they open up enhanced interrogation techniques on against each other’s personal when what good would any of the other agreements that the US and other countries concerning warfare or the treatment of prisoners? Will it continue to happen? Yes. Should we condone it? No. Has the opposition in many cases beaten, brainwashed and tortured then used our personal as propaganda? Yes But they all have paid the price 10 fold and will continue to do so.
The only reason this is coming up now is because Republicans are trying to use bin Laden as an excuse after the fact to justify torturing prisoners.
While news reports have said useful information came from prisoners, I haven't heard any reports which said the information only came out after torture was applied.
Not without changing the Constitution. This is not what we are and to me never should be as this method places us on the same low level as terrorists, North Korea and North Viet Nam. We need to hold fast to this and should punish those who authorized it in the past.
America should not torture, at least it hasn't in the past, up until recently. The Nazi's tortured and we brought them to trial and account. It wasn't torture that found Bin Laden, it was a renewed effort by President Obama and the intelligence community. It took dedicated people sifting through thousands of pieces of evidence, and tracking known terrorists to find the mass murderer.
He is gone now, and we don't need to see his photograph to know that he is dead. Children certainly don't need to have nightmares because of him.
We would be the only country who did not use some form of torture.
When it effects national security, then what ever it takes. We know that America is not perfect but look what they did to our soldiers. Maybe we should put them up in a 5 star hotel, come on we Americans in their eyes deserve death so let's use any means so they do not fulfill that dream.
We know who we are, now our enemies need to know they can not tell us what we can or cannot do. Let me remind them we are Americans and you do not hurt anyone of us without paying the price.
To rid the world of vermin like Osama bin Laden, any kind of interrogation would be justified, including waterboarding if necessary.
Can we just call it torture, give me a break "enhanced interrogation techniques." I am very glad we got him and I hope it brings some closure to the 9/11 families. Just in case anyone forgot (ie Cheney, Rumsfeld) there is some pesky document we signed agreeing not to
torture prisoners of war. We are supposed to an example to the world of how a civilized country operates and it should not include torture.
We are a nation that abides by its democratic laws and we do not approve of torture no matter what name is assigned to it. Torture is torture and has never been proven and still hasn't been proven to work. I think a prisoner information is not reliable when under torture. When a prisoner is under torture they would say anything even if they did not know anything, making the information unreliable.
Jack,
No!
"Enhanced" or torture is of NO value.
No credible information is gotten.
The enemy is strengthened.
We stoop to a low level and do the things we say we are against.
The world sees us as bullies and hate us.
Hardball will never be tasteful for softballers. In the murder business no more Mr. Niceguy. The covert invasion of a sovereign nation by U.S. Navy Seals in stealth aircraft under the cloak of darkness should bug softballers more than the waterboarding of terrorist prisoners, but I'm not hearing it.
Hardballers are here, they're in our face, and by now we should have gotten used to it (remember Oliver North?).
While softballers vent, Hardball goes on as usual.
As long as there is a security institution in the U.S. the game is "Hardball first, ask questions later." It's ugly, but if a single American life can be saved it's necessary.
KSM lied about the courier even after being subjected to EIT. He would have done the same without the use of those techniques. It was other intel, not the word of a captured terrorist, that led to the importance of the courier. The fact that KSM lied to protect him is what confirmed the courier's significance. Should EIT be used in the future? No. Should they have been used in the past? No. The fact is, we got OBL on Pakistani soil and would have done so without the use of EIT. Remember, we lost a chopper in the process. ISI needs to return all of the wreckage AND hand over other known Al Quaeda that they are likely protecting, just as they were likely protecting OBL behind our backs while using our money to build the place. If Pakistan is truly our ally, why haven't they done so already?
HELL YES. Whatever it takes to save AMERICAN lives. Those ANIMALS hate the west and all it stands for . They have no respect for any life or anybody but themselves.
The administration is denying that such techniques provided the information that led to bin Laden, so you're really asking this in the abstract, i.e. does the end justify the means? We will argue that question until the end of time, but until mankind becomes overcomes evil, we will continue to need to track down men like bin Laden.
No, "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" (Water Boarding) have not proven to be effective according to the CIA. Once again the GOP is trying to make a case that the Bush administration influenced the elimination of OBL. Also, EIT's are unconstitutional. Let's move on to more important subjects, such as, the Debt Ceiling, which is next on the agenda!
Tony Ginn
Tacoma, WA
Torturing prisoners is a War Crime period. I don't care what the results are. If Amadeenijahd or some other Villain of the Month tortured an American we'd be crying for days. What a bunch of hypocrites we are. No wonder the rest of the world has no respect for us. We can't even stand up to the ideals we preach.
NO because no matter what the criminal Cheney crowd says, it's DIDN'T WORK. the information that lead to bin Laden was obtained years AFTER "enhanced interrogation" was stopped.
Senator John McCain said it best. when he was tortured by the North Vietnamese he would just feed them LIES to make it stop. torture NEVER get you reliable information and in fact will usually get you "intell" that is misleading.
Nothing justifies the use of enhanced interrogation techniques, and Bush and his cabal should be brought up on charges of war crimes, instead of retiring on our tax dollars. How many times do they have to brag about it shamelessly before someone does something? Anyone?
Not unless we're willing to have our citizens endure the same thing at the hands of other governments. I vote "no."
No. It only brought America down to their dirty tactics. We lost our way and how awful we had to stoop to such dirty ways.
No. We should never use "enhanced" techniques no matter what the situation. When we do, we're no better than the animals we're hunting.
Dear Old Venerable One,
Our Nobel Peace Prize winning President should be given the highest accolades possible for ordering the successful hit on Usama bin Laden, but that sadistic George W. Bush should be tried as a war criminal for approving those torturous, advanced interrogation techniques that led to his murder.
Yours truly,
Hypocrisy
Absolutely not. As Thomas Paine said, "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself."
If it helps to get the bad guys, then yes, it is worth torturing prisoners. In this case though, Osama has been dead for at least 9 years so it is a moot point.
Yes.
If we reach the point where we are so politically and morally correct in the eyes of our enemies where they have no fear of us at all, where is the deterrent?
Maybe we should just ask them nicely during intterogation. I'm sure that would work.
What would the bleeding hearts do if it was there loved ones who's life was in harms way?
I fear we are becomming a nation of weaklings.
War is the art of the uncivilized man. What are the rules? There are none. Would the world have cared if Himmler was captured and waterboarded to get to Hitler?
The use of "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques", yes, but not torture! Just as President Obama recently announced with his decision not to release photos of the dead body of Osama bin laden...."That is not who we are". The principles of dignity, humanity, compassion, decency have been core to our values since this country was birthed and these principles should be apparent and transparent in all that we do doing war and doing peace time.
Mr. Cafferty:
It might, and we do not know if waterboarding was used in order to get Mr. Bin Laden's current address. I think it would be a good winnowing technique for candidates in the upcoming 2012 election adventure and I recommend gray water too !
Waterboarding sounds like a good option. Sounds as though we may have received some vital info in the locating of Bin Laden. If the technique works, why not use it.
No! Torture is against the Geneva Conventions and international law. We prosecuted war criminals after WW II for the very same torture techniques. Bush couldn't travel to Europe without risking a permanent side trip to World Court at The Hague. We probably would have gotten bin Laden had we continued to focus on getting him instead of diverting assets to invading Iraq.
Is there evidence that water boarding was a determining factor in obtaining information that lead the Navy Seals to Bin Laden's location and death?
No.... If the enhanced interrogation techniques had worked.... How come it took more then 10 yrs to find Bin Landen...? Bush could not find him in his time in office with the interrogation techiques he used.... I know if it did not work for him, it did not work for the last Obama....
Did enhanced interrogation techniques lead to capturing Bin Laden in any way? Yes. Nothing more needs to be said.
Our military risk their lives everyday for us and we should carefully weigh what we are willing to do versus what in turn might be imposed on one our brave soldiers. Enhanced interrogation techniques are not justified and only a few have said this is what gave us Osama bin Laden ten years later.
On it's face it sounds like a good reason to promote torture. Let's call it torture Jack, that's what it is. It's all good until this starts happening to our troops some day in the future, and American's become all indignant about it.
Let's not rush to take Dick Cheney at his word that torture led to our finding UBL. If that link is ever convincingly shown, I'll consider the question. Until then, I'm going to assume he's full of it, just like on every other issue.
KSM told the interrogators a lie while being water boarded The lie proved helpful. KSM thought he was helping el quida by lying during interrogation. Ergo, we should water board to get more lies. Sonny Chapman, La.
Jack, Is there actual proof that enhanced interrogation techniques were responsible for getting Bin laden? Who knows for sure. The answer to your question though is yes, but only in extreme and extraordinary cases or where time of the essence.
If it is so that these techniques were instrumental in his capture, why was he not captured sooner? No I do not think they are justifed. Mr Cheney and Rumsfeld are hoping to make the case so that they do not have to worry about being tried for war crimes. I personally think these two are only worried about their legacies.
Yes, even though I thought they were already justified. We should do whatever it takes to defeat these criminals. If we have to dunk someone's head under water a few times to keep some psychopath from killing innocent civilians then so be it.
No, because reports have shown that eit did not give us any of their names. It was spying, intercepting phone calls, and regular non-torture interrogation that got us the information.
Yes, just admit it people, this was the piece that finally led to Sundays actions.
"Bin Laden??? It does not seem to matter what exstreme you go to, to catch the bad-guys. Everyone is suspect, or interoggated for something or other at times! But who are the bad guys? If you stick your head out too high, I suppose your suspect! But it is the subject matter that surrounds the victim, (if he feels he is the victim,) that counts. You have to learn the hard way, to stay away from the heat I suppose!"
Yes, although times have changed peoples sick thoughts still remain. Just because our technology and ways of life change threw out time, makes no reason why waterboarding should not be taken into effect. We are dealing with people that have no admiration for our beliefs in peace and freedom threw ought the world. We are dealing with people that have no morals or respect for the human race. These terroist are animals, and what happens to an animal if they bite an innocent person? They get laid to rest. Justice has been done. Skokie IL
The detainees gave up useful info. years after they were waterboarded. NOTHING justifies using torture, and Jay Carney said as much-that Obama is still against waterboarding.
Does getting Osama bin Laden justify the use of enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding?
Since Donald Rumsfeld stated that the use of enhanced interrogation techniques/waterboarding, didn't get us OBL then NO we can't justify doing it. It makes us no better than those terrorists we claim are inhumane.
Jenna
Roseville CA
Definitely not, and frankly I'm sick and tired of this entire debate!! If it worked so well, don't you think Bush and his cronies would have loved nothing better than to find bin Laden while Bush was still in office. The Republicans have only started up this "so called" enhanced interrogation argument again in an effort to push as much credit away from President Obama as possible. In their eyes, he can't do anything right!!!
Not ever! We look into everyones backyard and say don't do this, don't do that, but then we turn around and do exactly what we say not to? I spent 20 years in the US Army. I put my life on the line for a country that I thought would not ever do anything like tortcher. Our image around the world is tarnished and we need to start living up to real principles.of what this country stands for. I wouldn't want any of our soldiers or other persons to have to be tortured.
Jack,
Of course not. Is there any argument for torture that would seem justified if used against us? Torture is immoral and unreliable. Bush shamed this country by authorizing interrogation techniques such as waterboarding. Obama restored us to our former national values by outlawing such methods.
Jim
Reno, Nevada
No. The use of torture has been condemned by international humanitarian law (i.e., The Rome Statute, the Third and Fourth Geneva Convention, the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights). Our national trend of going against our own values, ideals, and aspirations not only is appalling, but also hypocritical. We have fought how many wars to rid the world of tyranny and oppression? Only to find ourselves acting in the manner of tyrants and oppressors.
Yes but only on the 3 sort of folks it's been used on- known high-level terrorists who are in a position to have knowledge to save innocent lives and/or bring down terrorist organizations. Anyone who thinks that sending them a box of chocolates with a nice card will accomplish this is out of their minds. Sorry to the tree huggers who don't like it but I have a hard time feeling sorry for terrorists being scared and discomforted when doing so will save innocent lives.
I am against all forms of torture, waterboarding included. The act of torture according to the Geneva Convention is not permitted. As a world leader, the United States needs to hold itself above the rest of the countries, and not give in to the techniques that can be construed as torture. What does it say about us, if we reduce our interrogation techniques to that of our sworn enemy, then complain when our sworn enemy uses those techniques on us, their prisoners. Two wrongs do not make a right. As President Obama said regarding his decision not to release the pictures of OBL, and using that statement in this scenario, "We are above that"
Pittsburgh Pa
I don't know Jack, I think feeding them navy beans and chili every other day would have gotten them to spill their guts. But then again I wasn't the decider.
Of course enhanced interrogation works. Why else would we attack Iraq?
No We say we are the country that set the example then we need to do as we say
The ends do not justify the means. If waterboarding were so effective, then why did it take years to track down bin Laden?
It all come down to what we were all hopefully taught in grade school,
" The ends never justify the means"
Yes, unfortunately it does. If this was necessary to save more lives, which was the reason given for use of the atom bomb, then yes we needed to be as dirty and low as our enemies would be and have been to us.
Yes. I think we should use any means neccessary to get the information to save innocent human lives. Our enemies do not have a problem using torture to get information out of us so why should we grant them the liberty of not having torture used on them? I think Obama went soft when he banned the use of waterboarding because I think it's a very effective measure.
Absolutely not. While we may gain important information from enhanced interrogation techniques, it is not worth America losing it's soul. Even horrible people who do horrible things, are still people, and need to be treated as such. If we want our POWs to be treated well, we must treat our prisoners well.
If EIT or Enhanced Interrogation Techniques was so proper, why did it take two (2) Presidential Administrations to put it to good use. I am of the mind set that good old fashion detective work got Osama bin Laden. Besides, if we had never gotten him, GOD would have. HE always gets HIS man.
I don't think torture is the best way to get info–but if all else fails with a terrorist then stronger methods must be used. It could save hindreds or thousands of innocent live. Even if we didn't get bin Laden–waterboarding and making them feel very uncomfortable is fair game when it comes to terrorists who indiscrimately kill and maim thousands of completely innocent victims. These are sociopathic killers of women and children who won't stop until we stop them. Just the carnage they did in Iraq is reason enough.
These torturous techniques had nothing to do with the location and killing of Bin Laden. If he had been captured back when Bush was President then I'd say maybe but Not after all of these years. Conditions continually changed for and around Bin Laden. Modern technology and some inside information led to this lastest event with the Seals finding and killing him.
That will never be true. if it was the case why the Bush Administration did not get him before George Bush term was over?
If we are the freedom loveing nation we profess to be...then torture is NEVER justified. It drops us to their level of inhumanity.
I think a much more important question is whether torture can get the truth at all, and if so is it faster than other methods.
The morality of torture in interrogation should be treated as a separate issue after the issue of what makes for effective is resolved.
HELL yeah,
we shoudl do it more often. The terrorists and extremists have done it to us. PAYBACK. lets remember the soldiers that died in IRAQ and were dragged and paraded around. That isnt torture? that isnt extreme? eye for an eye. We need to start being SO nice, and remember this is WAR, not flag football.
No, because for every one person who may give up info under torture there will be hundreds who are tortured for no reason. If it took this many years to glean a nugget of info as to where Bin Laden was it's not nearly worth it. But for a country that espouses capital punishment and gun rights I'm surprised you'd even ask!.
Paul
Yes, use any means available to help us capture our enemies.
Jack, if there is a clear and present danger to this country, and interrogators believe a suspect has information to stop this danger, I would hope that any means necessary would be used to save innocent American lives. These heartless individuals give up their human rights the moment they try to take human life. Osama bin Laden, as long as he was alive, constituted a clear and present danger to Americans both in the U.S. and abroad.
Yes...definitely is worth it if it means stopping Usama's reign of terror.
Absolutely not! We are supposed to be better than they are. We cannot change our values to theirs or they have already won.
What ever it takes it's a war, but it should be the presidents decision.
Jeff
Las Vegas, NV.
In this case its important to understand that this is a special scenario and the people that reportedly were waterboarded(which has not been proven) where no angels, they were terrorist when are people going to stop feeling sorry for mass-murders and inside keep our nations safe. More power to bringing down those that want to inflict pain on others even if the means are not politically correct.
Yes. Using "Enchanced" techniques is justified and do work. Sometimes, to save lives, it takes getting your hands dirty.
Torture is never justified. It's what separates us from the mindless savages that perpetrated 9/11. Whenever this question comes up, I think of Captain America: "Truth, Justice and the American Way". Do you think torture fits into his world view?
If I was being waterboarded I would have admitted to being Ben Laden myself. I thought we were suppose to above that. If they take female sheilds sometimes when fighting, does that mean that we should too?
No question in my mind it is justified. If he had murdered your mother
or father, would you volunteer to waterboard him?
Yes. As long as North America (or the west for that matter) continues to try and play war by "the rules" while our enemies don't care about anything, including the deliberate targeting of civilians, women, and children, we will NEVER win any modern war. War IS War. There are NO rules!
No. Torture is simply wrong under any circumstances. Even if one does accept torture, it has been proven that more intelligence has been gained by establishing rapport with those being questioned.
NO!! If waterboarding was key to finding bin Laden, then why didn't Bush find him. He had years after the water boarding.
Would waterboarding be justified if it was done by us or done to us ? The United States executed Japanese soldiers after WWII for waterboarding American soldiers. If the Japanese soldiers pleaded that they wanted to find out where the Atomic bombs were going to be dropped, so they could evacuate the 2 cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to save Japanese lives, would have their arguments been valid (basically, their version of the ticking bomb) ?
You know I have no doubt that they would blow us all up if given the chance... I do not feel that I would ever sit back and let them even try... They set the rules... We are Merely playing by them!!! Do I like that we have come to this place? No! But, again – We did Not Set these rules...
Arie
New York!!!
Torture? No – absolutely not. However, when some Americans question the morality of bin Laden's shooting, I say "too bad we couldn't have taken him alive and then found a tall building (comparable to the Twin Towers height), thrown him out the window and said - fly baby fly! An eye for an eye – isn't that part of the terrorists' thinking?
I spent 20 years in the air force and the answer is No. Just ask any captured military member. !
Jack, if it works then why didn't they get OBL when they were doing it!! I'm appalled at how the Republicans somehow took credit for this victory although not surprised. The truth is that years later the Obama put the CIA on the case with laser focus AFTER torture was no longer an option, and they got him! Like you said Jack, the ones glorifying their acts of torture have no way of even knowing if it had anything to do with it. I call that a bold faced lie!!
Yes. Most definitely, we need to maintain whatever methods have led to capturing OBL. Since they haven't disclosed whether waterboarding played a role in obtaining the intel in order to capture him, we must assume that, indeed, it was useful... We need this vital technique in our arsenal. Now's not the time for PC rubbish.
Jack,
I'll be sincere and clear. If President Obama didn't uses these techniques, Osama bin Laden would still be roaming around in Pakistan planning an attack directly to you and I. They are grossoum but they get the job done!
Ismael Montoya
Visalia, California
Waterboarding is not torture, it's used in some trainning exercises. As Rumsfield has stated, there is no doubt that waterboarding did lead to help solve the puzzel. He also said only 3 people were waterboarded and NONE at the base in Cuba. It should be used rarely and only with the highest level of authorization but should not be off the table.
Nothing justifies torture. It's an evil practice and it's morally wrong. If that means sometimes we don't get the information we need, and sometimes the bad guys get away, then so be it. We can sleep at night knowing that WE did no wrong.
I'm a liberal and I don't think torture is the best way to get info–but if all else fails with a terrorist then stronger methods must be used. It could save hindreds or thousands of innocent lives. Even if we didn't get bin Laden–waterboarding and making them feel very uncomfortable is fair game when it comes to terrorists who indiscrimately kill and maim thousands of completely innocent victims. These are sociopathic killers of women and children who won't stop until we stop them. Just the carnage they did in Iraq is reason enough for us to be aggressive.
If torture worked, KSM would not have had to be waterboarded 183 times. If torture worked, KSM would have given us the actual name of the courier. If torture worked, then why didn't we get Bin Laden years ago? If torture worked and were in fact the only way to get information, then why did the Bush administration stop torturing? There may have been bits of information given up by people who were tortured, that doesn't mean that we wouldn't have gotten the same information using regular tried and true interrogation techniques.
No, it puts us on the same level as the evil-minded thugs good people stand against.
"All is fair in Love and War"
No I strongly disagree. I believe that if the Bush Administration had focused on catching Bin Laden and not Saddam Hussein we would have captured him without the use of waterboarding.
In all honesty, if water-boarding was such an effective method of acquiring reliable information from interrogated suspects, why did it take ten years to actually find Osama bin Laden? Considering that a prisoner, on average, could undergo as many as 89 separate instances of water-boarding before information was considered "reliable," I highly doubt this method was any more productive than the actual investigative work done to find bin Laden's compound in the first place.
Considering the compound bin Laden was found in itself wasn't even built at the time these "enhanced interrogation techniques" were used, I highly doubt that any information, reliable or otherwise, drawn from inmates at the time these techniques were used could have had any impact on the operation President Obama recently authorized.
Yes absolutely. Its simple. When someone is trying to kill you, you kill them first; anyway you can. No other option in my mind. Gibson
The only way to defeat a terrorist is to terrify them. Any method should be used to defeat an enemy when an enemy choses to use any method to defeat us. Waterboarding is not fatal and it works.
If we become weanies then we are asking for the worse.
The Islamic fanatics hate us and always will. Sto[p sending money to their friends and eliminate them when they choose to fight us.
Malvern, PA.
No, it does not justify enhanced terrogation techniques.
Don LaPato Marco Island, Fl.
you bet Jack...: "you wanna play you gotta pay" "don't dish it out if you cant take it" "revenge is a dish served best cold" Take Your Pick!
'America is great because America is good. When America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.' I am willing to give my life for the ideals on which this country was founded. If that means I take a risk because we DID NOT torture, then that means I take a risk. That is how I honor America – by my willingness to die instead of violating 'that which is good'.
Yes, Enhanced interrogation does not necessarily equal torture. Torture such that involves extreme pain, beating, or maiming should not be allowed. Sleep deprivation, loud music, and even water boarding do not rise to that level in my opinion.
Laura
Hawthorne, CA
Being politically correct isn't always possible. Maybe we should have just slapped Osamas hand instead. I'm sure he would have apologized.
No way! If I were being tortured I would say anything, I would lie, lie, lie.
So, how could you know if the info you get is reliable and factual? Also, that makes us no better than the evil doers that we are fighting. In fact, it is much more flagrantly immoral and unethical, since we are the leaders of the Free World and supposed to be more enlightened.
These fanatics blew us 3,000 innocent U.S. civilians and triggered armed conflicts that took the lives of thousands more of our brave soldiers, ruined Afghanistan and destabilized Pakistan. What should we do? Send them to a health spa? Waterboarding is too good for them.
no water boarding should not be alowwed be cause if one of our citzens wastcaught in another country you dont wan it to happen to them or a family member
What difference does it make where the information that led to bin Laden came from as long as it was used in the most effective way possible to capture/kill him. So many people get so wrapped up in wanting their just due in having a hand in the capture. Since September 11th no one NO ONE from Bush's administration was able to get enough information to perform the act carried out on Sunday. If they got information from damn near drowing someone then they should have gotten enough information to lead them to where bin Laden was. Having one small piece of information big whoop!!!!
I am a young latinamerican living in the Washington DC area, and I just have to say that osama bin laden deserved exactly what had happend. Waterboarding people is morally wrong, Guantanimo Bay is morally wrong and should and will be reformed. This is a great unifying moment for the country and a great moment in history for the world, as the roots of terrorism are finally being defeated. CNN should stay on top of history in the making. God Bless America.
Absolutly not. We are either America, or we are not. Everything I have ever beern taught in school rejects the idea that we would torture anybody, at all. We as a nation would rather remain on the moral high ground and take our time to do it right. That is why I was glad Obama ended the embarassment of 'enhanced interragation techniques'. I only wish that Gitmo was allowed to close. As long as the republicans allow and demand it to stay open, they are destroying any right we have to the moral high ground. They probably have destroyed it already. No, Jack, we must never, at all, in any way whatsoever, torture. Ethics and international law demand this, even if what it means to be an american seems to debate it.
I'm shocked we would do something like that and alittle ashamed. If this is okay than lets see the pictures
If it did and the clues were available, why couldn't the Bush Administration find bin Ladden? Could they not understand the clues or did they have other priorities?
Even if waterboarding had lead to information about bin Laden, that doesn't make it right, not when there are other ways of getting prisoners to talk that aren't reprehensible acts of cruelty. We don't need to stoop to the terrorists level.
Not really. The (mis)information obtained from KSM that led to OBL's demise was gotten months after he was water-boarded. Besides, I grew up during the cold war, I was taught that holding people in secret prisons and torturing them was what the bad guys did...not us.
Is it ok to break the law in order to uphold the law in the name of "justice?" Only when dealing with non-americans it seems. Both are criminals and one is not any better than the other! HYPOCRISY IN THE NAME OF PATRIOTISM!
I do not believe the end ever justifies evil means. Torture is wrong. I would not want to be tortured so should not do it to any living creature. I believe Bush and his gang of traitors perverted everything good this country has stood for. I believe I would say whatever would make them stop and truth has nothing to do with it. No. I do not believe torture is effective.
No, even if the information was gathered through this method (which has not been verified), it does not justify its continued use. Where does one draw the line? If we allow waterboarding as a means of interrogation what else might we eventually include under this category? What types of criminals will we subject to it? Who will be the judge of when to use it or not and on whom?
We should ask ourselves the question "Would we want to be policed by those with this power?"
Absolutely. Forms of this type of technique have been used for centuries. Opriginated in China. Most all of US Special Ops personnel receive waterboarding in their training. There are physicians present and you basically cannot drown. Water goes into your sinus cavity, tracea, but never in your lungs. It is a necessary part of the war on terror. Get off your left wind liberal soap box and face reality. Do you really want to be taken over by terrosists? Information gained through these techniques are invaluable.
Considering that we have constantly scolded other nations for employing torture, we shouldn't be employing torture against criminals, no matter how dangerous they are or how much information they have. It would be nothing more than hypocrisy. We hanged Japanese commanders for waterboarding our soldiers in World War II. Allowing our leaders to get away with torture would be a disgrace to our principles of the rule of law and humane justice.
It really depends on whether it actually works. An individual who is being tortured would say anything, even lies, if it will stop the torture. The lies might actually set back our intelligence rather than advance it. If we are being told more lies than the truth, these techniques should not be used.
Torture is despicable, and that we are even having this debate shows how far we have moved from the Bill of Rights and our Constitution.
No, it is not. Using extreme methods of torture might make the prisoner lie just to stop the torture. Plus, there is no way to guarantee that the information provided by tortured prisoners led to OBL.
You are posing a false alternative. I might be tempted to support waterboarding if it led to finding Bin Laden but study after study has shown that torture does not provide useful information. If it had, why didn't Bush and team find Bin Laden eight years ago when they were torturing people. Reports by officials, other than those involved in torture, all seem to indicate that it was information gotten through normal interrogation methods that led us to Bin Laden.
it was a war crime when the japanese did it, and we prosecuted them.
it was a war crime when the south vietnamese - our allies - did it in the 60's and 70's.
what could make it anything otherwise - except the need for its perpetrators and their apologists to avoid being named war criminals?
We draw lines for a reason and the next generation reasons about the lines we've drawn. When the speed limit is set at 65 it really isnt a law or a line. It's a reference point.
When the foundations are being destroyed what are right thinking citizens supposed to do? My answer would be "Don't give an elected official an eraser."
YES, other countries do alot worse on Americans prisoner. Like running toothpicks under finger nails, electricity, and hundreds of other inhumane methods. Why do we want to be the only one in the world that does not terrorize there prisoners
Regarding waterboarding – so it is better to have Americans killed or maimed so we can occupy the moral high ground? Tell that to the families of the victims. I'm sure they'd rather have their loved ones then some mythical moral superiority. If it saves lives use it. Leave the morality to philosophers.
Most interrogators will tell you that torture invariably leads to misinformation. So it is never justified. If you want the right results use standard interrogation techniques.That's what lead to Bin laden's demise...never mine what the Republican law breakers want to make you believe...
Are you kidding me ? Off course its justified. These terrorists would do more then just waterboard any U.S citizen to get information. Protecting the U.S , Canada and any other Free country should always be the most important thing. No matter what you might have to do.
Of course not. They had the tapes. All they had to do was keep the tapes–transcribe them and show exactly how they helped find Bin Laden. They destroyed the tapes-that would have proved them right–why would that happen?? Because they would have proved them wrong. They did irreparable damage to our country and now lie about it. Waterboarding 183 times-nothing but a desparate attempt to cover their behinds.
Missoula, Montana
I take Leon Panetta's comments as pretty definitive. Water boarding, among other enhanced interrogation techniques, did provide the clues that eventually led to the capture and killing of Bin Laden. It was the cornerstone of a mosaic of intelligence information. We can argue the moral imperatives all day long but the practical results are clear. This was a major victory for United States and, lest we forget, a mass murderer who attacked our country and killed nearly 3,000 people was brought to justice as a result. You might not like it Jack, and I may not like it, but the facts are the facts.
If they say torture is bad,what would you say about shooting him in the head point blank?Which is worse?
Atlanta,GA.
The use of torture dows nothing but ruin the image of our great country. I voted for President Obama because he promised to close Guantanamo and stop the torture treatments. It now looks as if I will have no one to vote for in the next presidential election unless a strong independent comes out of nowhere.
Yes because they are ready to kill themself to reach their goal anyway
Waterboarding simulates the sensation of drowning, but for those poor innocent people that jumped from the 79th floor of the burning Towers...that was no simulation.
Torture was extremely effective. We know that for a fact. We know with absolute certainty that the torture at GITMO was an extremely effective recruitment tool for Al Qaeda. We will never know whether torture actually yielded any useful information, because we will never know what information would have been gained using the tried and true interrogation techniques that have been developed over decades.
Since when conflicting pain to someone became exacts science?
Max, San Antonio
No! absolutly not. Torture me and I will admit to nailing Christ to the cross.
Wht, with torture leding yhe way dis it takesix pluse years to get from A to B? It does not work, end of story. METALWORKER in Illinols
Um, no. Maybe next we should legalize slavery because its more efficient. Lets drag these fossils out of the stone age. This is the United States, and we don't put up with that junk.
Should Timothy Mcveigh been waterboarded, before they caught Terry Nichols to find out other accomplices or plots ? Some of the far right groups do have continuous propaganda against the Federal government. And they train with firearms regularly. Or does Waterboarding only come into play when its Muslims ?
No any form of torture goes against the American way of Life,when I was growing up I remember watching movies where the bad guys always tortured us but even then we done the moral thing and handled things accordingly,Point is it was instilled into my generation and generations before me that as Americans we do not torture under any circumstances besides people who get tortured will tell you absoloutly anything so therefore it doesnt work,What is the purpose?
Yes!! we should be able to do what ever it takes to get information from a terrorist. its all about keeping us safe,and i fill safer knowing that this option is availible to our people that trying to keep us safe!! if you had a child that was kidnaped,and could find out there location by waterboarding the person involved!! what would you do?? Think about it...
I get really tired of how much time we spend worrying about the "rights" of terrorists. Do you think they spend one second worrying about the rights of the thousands of victims they have murdered? It seems victims have no rights in our society....no rights to safety and no rights for retribution. We are always expected to turn the other cheek! So, I say that when these known terrorists are captured we should do whatever is necessary to get informaton from them that will protect these creatures from killing more innocents. So does the end justify the means in this case? You betcha!
No! Far too many brave men have died standing tall for Democracy ... that is why we win Wars and devils loose like what's his name in WW II.
Use of waterboarding as enhanced interrogation is appropriately so long as medically supervised. It is used by the U.S. military in survival school to teach the military how to cope with such tactics. Sleep deprivation, continuous noise, and similar techniques should not be considered torture. No one is condoning tearing fingernails our or attaching battery cables to body parts. We are engaged in a very unconventional war with a very unconventional enemy and if some of the initial information regarding bin Laden's courier was determined by use of said techniques then we should all be thankful rather than condemn. As a side note, why the timidity in releasing photos of bin Laden in death, yet the zealous pursuit of publishing the Abu Graib photos despite the knowledge publication of same would inflame the Arab world and put Americans at greater risk.
Any man who has ever been in a fist fight has inflicted more real damage on his adversary than the CIA inflicted on this scum.
Only 3 people were ever waterboarded in the first place, at a time close to 9/11 when the US knew little about Al Qaeda. All three were uncooperative, all three were likely to possess useful and important information, all three "earned" the "enhanced techniques" they were interrogated with.
If the situation warrants it, and that situation did, use it. No lasting damage was done and in this case, it produced some level of useful information.
Absolutely! I think the big issue here is semantics. Any technique that
leaves the terrorist with all of his limbs and digits and creates no permanent, maiming damage is not "torture" in my book. Short of that, have at it!
The steps taken by the Bush administration to vigorously
pursue terrorists led to this weeks bringing Bin Ladin to
justice. Obamas actions in ordering the actions in Pakistan
are commendable we shouldn't be shocked by subsequent alphonsing and gastoning by the administration .
This is to be accepted.Typical and depressing.
YES! Waterboarding is more than justified and may have led to the finding and killing of Osama bin Laden.
How many more might have died, as a result of Osama's terrorist plots to kill – often the innocent – as we saw when the Twin Towers went down and when the Pentagon was attacked, if he had not been taken out?
Justice has been served. It's not the end of terrorism, but it eases the pain and helps us cope with the senseless loss of lives on 9.11.
Short Answer No, it does not work. Not only is it not our Values, its Illegal. Prez Obama didn't make it illegal, Its has always been illegal, and is considered a War crime for a reason. Why is it that Prez. Obama wants to look forward in regards to the past administrations war crime acts, yet looking forward "ignoring" only applies towards The Presidential Administration wrong doings?
Enhanced interrogation techniques are sometimes needed to get positive results. The only negative is that the public found out.
If we got the desired results without waterboarding, the people would have said "Brilliant!" The truth is, we do not need to know what techniques are used to get answers.
One more thing...Waterboarding is NOT torture. Neither is slamming an enemies head into a rubber wall or putting them in a box with fuzzy bugs! They are enhanced interrogation methods and should not be lumped together with, for example, electrocuting a prisoner's genitals, cutting off extremities, etc.
No, the end does not justify the means. Nor do I believe that bits and pieces of information gathered 10 years ago had anything to do with the intell that led us to Osama Bin Laden. If "enhanced" interrogation techniques did ANYTHING, they delayed finding him for 10 years.
There is NEVER an excuse for enhanced torture and that's what it is, torture. Times can never change to the point of justifying it. Nothing has ever been gained by it's use. We are Americans and this is the United States. We don't allow torturing and it is a pathetic excuse of an American that would even consider condoning it. We are above that.
Torture is no more or less immoral than killing someone. It is the reason behind the action that justifies it. I could be wrong here, I am no legal expert, but my understanding is that this international was designed to protect uniformed soldeirs. I believe that spies were even excluded from this protection. The American people, and democracies in general, have a bad habit of extending this anti torture agreement to encompass terrorist.
The end does justify the means when the alternative is the greater crime. It is my belief that the day a major western city disappears beneath radioactive mushroom cloud, this argument will become mute.
Yes it does. Terrorists only understand violence and sitting down and talking to these types of people would never get any type of information from them. Waterboarding is mild compared to what would happen to one of our people if the roles were reversed.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.....nothing justifies torture...moreover, it cannot be proven that just because waterboarding was used that this helped capture Bin Laden...........if you ask me, this is just a way of the Republicans getting credit for the capture and killing of Bin Laden...I mean, the suggestion that "waterboarding prisoners helped in his capture" is absolutely absurd...It was the decisiveness of Obama (who gave the go ahead) AND the Seals (who actually got him) that deserve ALL the credit.
Its laughable to hear the claims that water boarding techniques used resulted ten years later in the death of Osama. Seems like a desperate attempt to grasp at straws and give credit where it is not deserved. There is no solid proof that these torture techniques resulted in any information used to find Osama, and torture is never acceptable in any circumstance.
Speaking As A Democrat When Your Dealing With Killers And Terroists Such As The Likes Of Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein And Others I Believe We Should Use Whatever Techniques Are Neccessarry To Get The Information We Need Including Waterboarding And Torture, Sorry But These People Want To Kill Us!
Scott Stodden (Freeport,Illinois)
This is a moot point now. Bin Laden directed inhumane and savage
acts weekly and certainly can't claim the high ground. now. Ask
someone who lost a love one on 9.11. As for the high and mighty
Pakistan, thgey have no ground to stand on – I think thet they were
complicit with Osama. in his lavious lifestyle of a very poor country.
In summarey, "The means justifies the end." As an American, I pray
for more"a hand for a hand" style justice.
So we dunk a guy's head in a bucket to find the most ellusive man on the planet...? Someone wanna explain the hundreds of billions we spend on intelligence ( NSA, CIA, ARMY) every year? Pssssst..... Why didn't we just FOLLOW the courier? Oh yea. He was sneaky.
I think the whole world is watching us right now. President Obama said he does not believe in waterboarding.I agree with him. This is AMERICA and yes " We are above that."
Jack, Only the President should have the ultimate authority to use enhanced interrogation techniques whenever he deems it necessary to keep our homeland safe. If we only ask prisoners of war for name, rank, serial number – we are doomed to loose the war on terror.
Absolutely! I am now 43 years old and remember vividly ten years ago the scenes that unfolded on 9/11. People running for their lives, too many losing their lives and some giving up their life. What is it like when you your choice is to bear the heat and flames or jump...and you choose to jump? I have no idea what it is like to have to make that decision and my heart goes out to those souls who did and their families that have endured their loss ever since.
Whatever means necessary is ok in my book. I have heard waterboarding "simulates" drowning. There was NOTHING simulated about the horrors that took place on 9/11.
Nick
Cape Coral, FL
Yes, I feel waterboarding is appropriate when it come to terrorists. They are a different breed of enemy that have no qualms in killing innocent people. If the only way to catch them or their followers is through this so-called torture, then let it be. The goal of our President and leaders of the United States is to protect all Americans from this type of oppression at any cost. It appears to have worked in the Bin Laden interrogations with his henchmen. Need I say more!
I believe that had they stayed to the tried and true interrogation techniques of the FBI and CIA, they would have obtained yet more information, faster, and in more depth, than was, or would have been, obtained by any torture methods.
And, we could have "laughed at" Al Qaeda, saying we have all this information, and we have no "dirty hands" to which they could point.
The U. S. should obey the laws of the land the same as they expect everyone else to. The more disturbing question is: If they had this infor years ago why didn't they act on it? Why did they sit on it all these years? If I was a Bush supporter I wouldn't be bragging so much about obtaining this info through waterboarding, they make it appear they were too stupid to piece it together.
Torture is a war crime which the Bush Adnministration appears to have ordered our troops to perform. I seem to recall we prosecuted a few troops in the Vietnam War for war crimes. The public revilled the majority of our troops because of the actions of a few. Obama promised to close Gitmo and stop the torture, I guess his word is not too good.
war at anytime against any enemy host hoorific attrocities, which when our military personel have been subjected to are considered to be inhumane treatment, as in the vietnam era and the torture that many nam pows indured. are we not under the same scrutiny when it comes to interrogating prisoners or are we not held to the same rules of conduct. have we forgotten hiltlers merciless techniques as well. we pride ourselves as better than most where humane conduct and humanitarian efforts are concerned so where does waterboarding fit in? i am overjoyed that OBL was taken out and object to post referring that it has been claimed as a victory for Obama. never once have i heard Obama claim it as his victory but as a victory for America. the comment that once again there was no party seperation and now 5 days later the dogs of patisanship are fighting for the gory bone. can't we be just americans and proud of it
How can evil come to justice through evil means? We Americans take pride in our actions of goodwill; but how is using torture to get our dirty work done a step towards making the world a better place?
Talking about and focusing on the subject of torture means it is happening within you now, so who is the one being tortured? It's probably effective at making you a miserable person if you think about it long enough?
I'd answer your question with a question Jack. Is using water boarding to get information from one person any different than using a fully occupied airliner to smash into fully occupied office buildings to kill thousands? The bleeding heart liberals would say "no". I say that's nonsense.
Gary in Scottsdale, Arizona
Jack I'm usually so far to the left on most political issues some folks would think I'm Communist.
On this issue I step way out of that box. We are dealing with irrational fanatical idiots who think nothing of hijacking planes to crash them into buildings killing almost 3000 innocent and "unarmed" I might ad civilians. Just to make a statement...?
My statement to them. "If you are found associating with that terrorist group in any way, your right to traditional POW standards are hereby revoked"... We will do whatever it takes to get information from you willingly or in ways that might be painful.
God bless America and our right to express ourselves in peaceful ways.
"Waterboarding, which is the simulated drowning of prisoners to get them to spill secrets, is no longer legal, thanks to President Obama. It was one of Obama's first acts as president."
I don't think that's true. The president doesn't have the authority to make anything legal or illegal, he has to do that in cooperation with Congress. As I recall, he said he wouldn't use torture, but he reserved to himself or to any future president the right to reinstate it. But leaving that aside, I feel the same way about this as I did when it cam out that Werner von Braun, who was central to the early space program, had been a big-time collaborator with the Nazis. Slave labor and all that. I really wonder if it was worth it. Torture is against international law, it's beneath American standards, and it should never be used. The way to fight this war is to stop buying their damn oil.
Fred Griswold
San Mateo CA
Dispite being water boarded over 100 times KSM did not give up the most important piece of information he had, the name of the courier that would lead to OBL. How effective is that.
Well Jack,
Does it bring back our stable economy...
Do oil prices come down...
Does the al-mighty dollar come...up
Does Singapore use bamboo in their whippings?
Phillipines allow cigerette burning on the genitile...
The middle east will cut your hand off if you steal...
Waterboarding sure its okay with a little EST(electro shock therapy)
But if you give Pakistan 1billion a year I wouldn't mention that in the next election. Thats a really big sin....
Torture is no more or less immoral than killing someone. It is the reason behind the action that justifies it. I could be wrong here, I am no legal expert, but my understanding is that this international was designed to protect uniformed soldeirs. I believe that spies were even excluded from this protection. The American people, and democracies in general, have a bad habit of extending this anti torture agreement to encompass terrorist.
The end does justify the means when the alternative is the greater crime. It is my belief that the day a major western city disappears beneath radioactive mushroom cloud, this argument will become moot.
This is just another attempt to justify unjustifiable actions. Plenty of other people who are in a position to know have said flat-out that the Bin Laden mission did not happen as a result of anything obtained during torture. The machiavellianism of the Bush administration should have never been allowed and those who continue to try and justify it should consider the consequences; they just might wind up in the same place as Bin Laden after they die.
No ==== torture is torture and it still does not prove that it worked.
I do not pretend to be an expert on ANYTHING; but, gleaned from EVERYTHING I have heard from EXPERTS, most of whom say that kind of information is UNRELIABLE, I am of the strong OPINION that those PROFESSIONALS are correct, and therefore, I defer to them: But, if I had to answer either yes or no, then my answer would be............. NO
Nothing justifies water-boarding. This inhumane practice has been embarrassing to me with my European friends.
May I add in response to criticisms that bin Laden was killed when he was unarmed:
The 9/11 victims were unarmed when they were killed!
Bravo Obama and the Navy Seals. Makes me proud!
Get a grip, conservative America!
Hammond, Louisiana
Jack,
No. It could someday be expanded and used on domestic terrorists? Tim McViegh for example? Where in the sand will the line be drawn?
Don't get me wrong. I am a happier person knowing people like Bin Laden and McViegh are rotting in hell. However, it's a little scary wondering what would come once we unleashed hell.
Joe (Mn)
changing the name of torture to enhanced interrogation is like calling a used car... pre-owned .....make it sound better and yes bush and cheney should have been held accountable for war crimes but the democrats got invloved also so thats why obama didnt do anything ... in the weeks before the topics were gas prices and the thousands without jobs this gives us something to be happy about till we go pay for gas or look for a job..........
Jack,
Nowadays,it seems that anything can be justified due to some loophole in a law,some Amendment violation,or some grey area in a law not specific enough for prosecution,until someone exploits any of those situations excessively.That is the reason why we spend so much money patching up those situations rather hastily after the fact.One good example would be that we had to pass laws which basically told Wall St. to conduct business with basic 'moral' and 'ethical' principles.Criminals have more Rights than 'We The People...' do. Greg M. Largo,FL
Enhanced Interrogation is torture! Torture is wrong and evil because it causes pain and discomfort to a person who might be telling the truth and innocent of guile. How does the torturer know when the person being tortured is telling the truth? What happens if that person truthfully knows nothing? Does the one doing the torturing know who has information and who does not? If I were being tortured I would say whatever my tormenter wants to hear just to stop the pain. Torture is un-Godly!
Brooklyn, New York.
Lets see now,we condemmed the Nazi's and Japanese inhumane treatment during WWII and then there was Sen McCain's treatment as a POW, but it is ok for us to use "inhanced interragation techniques". as well as other POW's during Vietnam. And this makes it right how?
Jack,
In Viet Nam our country did some horrible things including torture and murder. All we did was embolden the VC and North Vietnamese to defeat us. You cannot win by doing terrible atrocities to people. The Nazis and Communists did that. Their record speaks for itself.
Yes. War is hell. End the war as soon as possible, using whatever means necessary. The only problem I see, is the mistake in allowing these techniques to be leaked to the general public. Get it done. Don't tell us. Save American lives. Preserve Freedom. End of story. In other words, just as the Navy Seals would have it.
North Pole, Alaska
The intelligence came from many different places. If Water Boarding had worked Bin Laden would have been caught a long time ago. This Administration deserves a lot of credit. Thank you Mr. President. for not giving up.
Jack, we're two years into President Obama's presidency. Bin Laden has supposedly been living in this house for 6 years. If waterboarding yielded such information, why wasn't it acted on years ago?
the best reason i can think of for not torturing prisoners is because the enemy might do the same thing to our soldiers
No, shameful stuff. The military is a class act and this has no class and is beneath dignity. Vietnam vet.
Like you say Jack, no suggestion has been made (or will be made) as to the role torture (ok "enhanced interrogation") played in getting information that led to the compound, since that would be tipping our hand publicly as to our sources and intelligence capability. Knowing that, this is the one area in which Mr. Cheney can have free reign to claim whatever he likes, since it will likely never be refuted. The Bush administration shares much of the credit for this kill, but Mr. Cheney should not use this moment to try to justify some of the mistakes they (understandably) made in the wake of 911.
This debate is a total waste of time. It has been interesting in the last few days to see the all the Bush administration proponents (Rice, King, Card, etc...) for enhanced interrorgation techniques ATTEMPT to give themselves some degree of credit for the capture of Lucifer (bin laden). It is akin to me giving credit to myself for the death of Hitler (I wasn't born until 1963). The Bush administration wasted six years trying to catch this devil. If these techniques work why didn't they catch him.
Absolutely ridiculous! It is not justifiable because it did not work
The only reason we're having this debate because it is an attempt by the Republicans to "not" give Obama credit for something Dubya could not do. PERIOD!
No information was gained by torture, ever!
It is hard for me to stomach those who support torturing people for any reason. It makes me ashamed to call myself an American. Or rather, makes me ashamed to call the people who support torture "Americans." They cower in a corner and wet themselves at the mention of Islam.
We are no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave. We have become the land of conformists and the home of sniveling cowards. Torture does not give reliable intel and few terrorists have been stopped this way. It is a war crime and we did nto like it much when our soldiers suffered torutre in Vietnam.
Yes. These terrorists will torture our soldiers anyway as long as they are alive. We should do everything we have to do to save the lives of our soldiers and our citizens. Nobody wants to agree with torture because it makes them feel guilty until we have another 9/11. Then we'll see how many agree with it.
Would I waterboard someone to save my wife and kids. You bet! and whatever else it takes. When someone seeks to harm innocent people, then the gloves come off. If you dont want fight...don't throw the first punch. Pretty simple.
Jack,
I find it interesting that the American population still believes that the use of torture will not find its way to an American, either military or civilian, if captured. If terrorists can use whatever means to torture an American captured then why must we be the ones to offer the terrorist a cup of tea and a five course meal when we capture them.