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May 28th, 2008
05:00 PM ET

What should Dems do about Michigan & Florida?

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(PHOTO CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES)

FROM CNN's Jack Cafferty:

The Democratic Party is going to try to sort out the headache created by Michigan and Florida.

The rules committee meets this weekend to decide what to do with the delegates from those states. Michigan and Florida broke party rules by moving up their primaries and as punishment were stripped of all their delegates. It was made clear to them before they changed the primary dates that is what would happen.

Party lawyers say the DNC has the authority to seat some of these delegates, but not all. They say seating half of the delegates is quote "as far as the committee can legally go." And, once the committee decides how many of the delegates to seat then they need to figure out how to divide them between Clinton and Obama. Could be a long weekend.

It becomes pretty tricky when you consider that in Michigan, Barack Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot. It's also important to note that both candidates signed a pledge not to campaign in either state and agreed the primaries should be invalid if the states changed the dates. Senator Clinton appears to have forgotten this.

Clinton is hoping the committee will seat as many delegates as possible, so she can narrow the gap with Obama and then try to persuade superdelegates to side with her. But the fact is that even if the delegates are fully restored, it won't be enough for her to overtake Obama's lead.

Meanwhile, a Florida court has thrown out a lawsuit challenging the party's decision not to seat the state's delegates. The judge sided with the Democratic Party, saying that political parties have the right to make their own rules. It's the second lawsuit in Florida protesting the DNC's decision to be thrown out of court.

Here’s my question to you: What should the Democrats' rules committee do about Michigan and Florida?

Interested to know which ones made it on air?

John from San Diego writes:
Jack, the Democratic leadership needs to craft a carefully-worded statement that reiterates the fact that all the candidates, Hillary and Barack included, agreed to a set of ground rules, and that the Florida and Michigan politicians then threw their voters under the bus. Then they should seat delegates from each state in a manner that doesn’t punish the innocent voters, but also doesn’t alter the current balance of elected delegates nationwide.

Michael from California writes:
First, seat all elected delegates but with only 1/2 a vote each. Second, remove all superdelegates from the two states, since these are some of the very party leaders that got their respective states into this fiasco. Finally, the delegates should be split 50/50 between the candidates.

Tom from Boston writes:
Gee, let's see. The DNC established clear rules, Florida and Michigan broke them, and now Clinton wants to seat them simply because she is going to lose the nomination otherwise. How much more transparent could this be? The rules are the rules, pure and simple.

Elena writes:
Seat them! I do not care if it gives Hillary the nomination, but do not leave out 2 million+ voters. It will come back and haunt the Democrats in the fall. The voters will be so angry they'll vote for McCain and the Democrats will lose.

Bob from Pittsburgh writes:
Jack, Since Hillary had all of the name recognition going into this election and neither candidate was permitted to campaign in either Florida or Michigan, these illegal primaries were nothing more than "beauty contests." Of course Hillary "won," though beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

Dennis from Gwinn, Michigan writes:
Both states have great fishing. Maybe they can have a winner-takes-all bass catching contest. This process is getting old enough to stink like a dead carp anyway.

Posted by
Filed under: 2008 Election • Barack Obama • Hillary Clinton
soundoff (190 Responses)
  1. joe m.

    NOTHING. these states broke the rules, the candidates agreed to the rules, and the states were given a chance to fix this long before the illegal votes were held. it's like going to buy a used car, test driving it, discovering that there is a problem, paying the owner, then coming back several months later to complain that there was a problem with the car when it was sold. DNC needs to stand fast and think of the future of the party. Any compromise of accomodation now only opens the door to other states doing the same thing 4, 8, 12, or any other time the in future. remember when we were kids and were told not to do something or we'd be punished? what happend then was if we disobeyed we were punsihed and we learned not to make the same dumb choice again. it's a painful lesson, but for the good of the party FL and MI needs to learn their lesson.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:15 pm |
  2. miko Kansas city

    They should adhere to the rules!! Show america that there are rules and there are consequences for not following the rules!! HRC should also be honorable and not cry foul just so that the rules are bent for her advantage. If she is dishonorable now, what kind of president would that make her?? They can not change the rules with all of America watching!! HRC signed in agreement for the rule!!

    May 28, 2008 at 2:16 pm |
  3. Bodo from Ann Arbor

    Mrs. Clinton has deliberately broken the rules of the Democratic party and must not be rewarded for her violation. The Florida and Michigan delegates should be seated impartially so that neither candidate benefits.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:17 pm |
  4. george charles paree

    give florida to hillary and hillary 10% more that half in mich. Then revote the first thirty states because democrats didnt know who the they were voting for. This is the worsted election I have ever seen.we kneed to realy make you mad jack and start over again.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:18 pm |
  5. Roger (Dallas, TX)

    Give each state half their delegates, tell Hillary she is not going to get what she wants and either accept the decision of the DNC or continue on in what will eventually destroy any chance of a Democratic victory in November and be remembered as the person who deprived America of a potentially great President in Barack Obama.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:18 pm |
  6. Marva (Oklahoma)

    The DNC's rules should be abided by. Period. If Hillary gets HER way, 100% of Michigan's and Florida's delegates will be seated and the delegates of the caucus states – and let's not forget those other "insignificant non-battleground states – will not be seated. She will, then, have succeeded in stealing the nomination from Barack – in much the same way that Bush stole the election from Gore – the Republican Party didn't want to count ALL votes either. Hillary has just been more selective. Bush didn't want to count all of FLORIDA's votes. Hillary wants to disregard the votes in caucus states and states not deemed "battleground states".

    Frankly, it is time to abolish the delegate system. The President of the United States should be selected in the same manner as all other "public servants" ... BY POPULAR VOTE. Then, no one need consider who won the most states, who won the "battleground states", who won the women's vote, the votes of the African Americans, etc. The only vote that matters is ALL THE VOTES!

    May 28, 2008 at 2:18 pm |
  7. Tom, Raleigh NC

    The DNC should penalize any State party officials that had a hand in moving their primaries against the rules by removing them from their posts and banning them from being officials for several years. But, the DNC should count the popular votes and assign delegates to candidates based on the actual results. The voting public did NOT violate any rules, they simply exercised their right to support their candidate of choice. To penalize the voters is absurd and offensive and will kill DNC prospects in November. Remember, it was party officials and politicians in Florida and Michigan that thumbed their noses at the DNC. Spank them, and them alone. No candidate campaigned in either state, so the playing field is level. As for Obama's cry that his name was not on the Michigan ballot, tell it like it is. Obama himself removed his name from the ballot. Bad choice and his mistake. But, to be generous, the DNC should credit him with all of the "Uncommitted" votes in Michigan, even though the choice reflects votes cast for John Edwards as well. Anything less is an insult to several million voters in two crucial General Election states.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:19 pm |
  8. nora CC TXAS

    What they need to do is stop the madness, How long should American be subjected to the whims of Hillary Clinton, it is like a nightmare that you can't wake up from. She is holding the democratic party hostage, and she needs to stop. The rules committee should do what is fair. Florida and Michigan broke the rules in american when you break rules there is consequences, atleast that is what you teach your children from the time they are born. Come on Superdelegates, do your job, make this circus that is going on in the democratic party STOP!!!!That is what you are there for.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm |
  9. Brad, Amarillo TX.

    Jack I think it is ridiculous that anyone is considering counting these delegates. THEY DIDN"T FOLLOW THE RULES. Now they are acting as if it were someone else's fault. It is just like some one robbing a bank and saying " I knew it was against the law but I deserve the money so can we change the rules?"
    Hillary didn't care about either state until she fell behind in delegates and votes. Now that her nomination is no longer "Inevitable" she claims to be fighting for the little people. Get real she wants to rob the bank. Here in Texas we make to process as hard as it can be and we manage to get it right, what is wrong with Florida? They have had eight years to figure this out and haven't what will it take for them to learn?

    May 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm |
  10. Louden in Bellevue, WA

    Punish the Florida and Michigan democratic parties and make it clear that they are not punishing the people in those states.

    It's important to make the distinction on who is being punished.
    The people have bad state representatives for their party and those representatives are the ones being punished.

    People in those states should take this as a hint to elect better representatives.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:21 pm |
  11. RC Lendz Philadelphia, PA

    They should take into consideration that both state's Democratic Parties tried to get the dates changed back, but the Republican state legislations refused to let them. So, technically, it was not their faults. And a majority of the voting Democrats in both states want the votes to count. The votes should count.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm |
  12. David, Orlando, FL

    This is a tough one. It is not the voters who caused this problem so their rights to be heard should not be compromised. On the other hand, these two states need to be taught a lesson in fair play. Florida obviously is a hopeless cause. But perhaps the Michigan politicians should be punished in some way, such as not being permitted to run for any office ever again.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm |
  13. Ray Kinserlow

    They should split the delegates evenly between Obama and Clinton. Anything else would be unfair to those states that played by the rules.

    Ray Kinserlow
    Lubbock, Texas

    May 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm |
  14. Rosalynd Florida

    Cut the Florida and Michigan delegates in half including the Super D's and then split them 50-50 between the candidates. The rules are the rules and Clinton and her supporters are acting like spoiled children for making an issue out of these 2-states that broke the rules.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm |
  15. Patricia

    Do a 60/40 split for both states. I am soooooooo tired of the bickering.
    Patricia
    Palmdale, Ca.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm |
  16. Joe in DE

    They should seat them with a minor penalty. If they do anything else, they will probably lose those states. The failure of the DNC and Obama to understand this is unexplainable.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm |
  17. Dave P.

    Jack,

    They already did what they should have, that is punish them for breaking the rules. I can't vote (as I always have) democratic at any level if the party changes the rules in mid game.

    Dave
    Iowa City,Ia

    May 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm |
  18. Jed in Redding, CA

    As far as the delegation goes, the full delegation should be seated but they should only be given a half vote per delegate. Notice that's slightly different than only getting half the number of delegates but it has the same discipinary effect.

    Florida can be seated as they voted in the early primary. Maybe the contest wasn't as fair as it could have been, but Hillary would have won anyway.

    Michigan is a whole different headache. But I think I have a solution. Hillary won 55% of the vote so she gets 55% of the delegates. That's about 72. The remaining 56 can be split equally among the 4 candidates who did the honorable thing and took their name off the ballot. That's 14 each for Obama, Biden, Edwards and Richardson. Considering Richarson and Edwards both back Obama he'll probably get their Delegates for a total of 42. And if Biden backs Obama, he could get all 56. That sounds fair to me.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm |
  19. Kay in WV

    They should treat them differently.

    All candidates were on FL's ballot and none of them campaigned in the state. To do less than seat them all as the voters wanted them seated would be to say "you don't count". That will hand the state to McCain in the fall, because you know that he will seat them all at his party's convention.

    Michigan is trickier as only Clinton was on the ballot. But, it was Obama's choice to remove himself, probably not a hard one as he was expected to lose, and it was also his choice to oppose a revote when those discussions were taking place. Given that, I should hope that Obama is penalized for his choices. Should all of Michigan's delegates be seated? Of course they should. We Democrats want to win in the fall don't we? And they need to be apportioned according to the vote for Clinton and the uncommitted should be ruled by their consciences but not allowed to cast their vote for Clinton.

    We must all remember that punishing the voters will not be punishing the truly guilty, the state party leadership.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm |
  20. Lorenzo, Atlanta, GA

    Michigan and Florida should be penalized and stripped 50% of their delagates. To then divide the remaining delagates should be fair to both Clinton and Obama.

    Michigan should be split 50/50 because Obama was not on the ticket.

    Florida should be split 55/45 for Clinton.

    After both candidates get their allotted share of Delagates, Hillary should pack up camp and step aside. She could then start to patch the crack she created in the Democratic Dam before it bursts and floods this country with anger and separation.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm |
  21. Tom - Las Vegas, Nevada

    They need to seat the delegates but the previous votes are too tainted to use and a fifty-fifty split isn't repressentative of the individuals in those states. They should hire three non-partisan polling agencies (if there i such a thing) and run polls based on random samples of those eligible to vote in the respective states. They can then average the polls and then assign the delegates proportionately.

    Those states should be repressented and they should be done so fairly, without regard to either candidates current political needs.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:24 pm |
  22. Ron San Diego

    Hi Jack:

    I think it would be appropriate for them to allow the vote and count it towards the nomination.

    Ron San Diego

    May 28, 2008 at 2:25 pm |
  23. Scott - Wichita, Kansas

    I'm not going to go with the whole Clinton vs Obama thing.

    I beleive that the DNC should convince themselves that they have seceded from the Union, and ignore them for the rest of time. That oughta make them see their follies. Then, in 10 years or so, they should re-admit them, and start the state quarters all over again, stimulating the economy.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:25 pm |
  24. Terry from North Carolina

    Jack
    Absolutely nothing, these two states violated the rules set forth by the DNC. The sad thing is the voter suffers for a few peoples ignorance or egos.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:25 pm |
  25. Conservative Buyer -CA

    Democrats need to show some spine by abiding the rules setforth for this Primary.

    The Primary goal of 2025 should be preserved but should seat Florida an Michigan delegates after the following Tuesday. DNC should recognize FL and MI delegation while preserving the Democratic Primary goal at 2025.

    Any different outcome that results in moving the goal posts will fallout to be the most scrutinized election. This will not be scrutinized by only Republicans but by other nations whom are especially against democracy. It will look like we Americans cannot comply and deviate from our own rules, while rewriting the rules only to suit our best interests.

    Should the magic number be altered then it wont matter who becomes the Democratic Nominee. It will be a shame and the Republicans are going to have a field day on whoever the Democratic Nominee turns out to be.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:25 pm |
  26. Larry from Georgetown, Tx

    Turn everything upside down like most politicians and change the rules again and award all of the delegates to Hillary so she will win the nomination. After all this is the way that things are done in Washington so why should they stop being dishonest. This way they can lose the election to a war minded, tax relief for the rich, and old man and at the same time start numerous riots around the country.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:26 pm |
  27. Mary Jo from Iowa

    The ruling was made when Florida and Michigan changed their primary/caucus dates. Junior high is over–everyone (state committees, candidates, and news media) should respect that consequences have been assigned for bad behavior. It was the decision of the Democratic parties in each of those states to defy the ruling, and now the poor-me's want to cry "unfair."

    May 28, 2008 at 2:27 pm |
  28. Reuben Huggleby Minneapolis,MN

    They should say "Sit on it, Potsie!" C'mon, everyone agreed on the rules and what would happen if they were violated. They were violated, and guess what, now the votes are null. It is not that difficult

    May 28, 2008 at 2:27 pm |
  29. Don-Ocala, FL.

    Seat 50% of the delegates from each state and award them in a manner that benefits neither candidate. Do not allow any popular votes from Michigan to be claimed by Hillary as Obama was not on the ticket. I have heard that more people voted for no one on the Michigan ballot than voted for Hillary. If this is true and Hillary wants her votes award the nobody votes to Obama as that is who they wanted to vote for anyway! The Clinton's somehow believe that they can change any rule, bully any super delegate and deceive the American people into thinking they are some kind of royalty. Wrong-this is only true among those "Blue Collar, Red Neck, Uneducated, White Americans" they keep claiming that support her. This only proves that ignorance is "Alive and Well" in parts of our country til this day.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:27 pm |
  30. Allan Hanson Cameron Park Ca.

    Shouldn't all votes count?
    I think "caucuses " should be abolished the most agressive one in the room tends to overcome all the weaker. This destroys the secret ballot we are suppose to have.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm |
  31. Carol c.

    I assume they will try to compromise and seat half of the delegates. Hopefully when the people of Florida and Michigan vote, they will punish the people who chose to disobey the rules. Rules are to be obeyed and if we reward them by letting them change the results of this campaign with Sen Obama playing by the rules and not even having his name on the ballot that is ridiculous,

    All of this is over Clinton's pride! If the DNC allows them to seat even half, it is a gift!!

    Carol
    Knoxville, TN

    May 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm |
  32. Terry in Hanover County

    What should be done depends upon how badly the DNC wants votes in the Fall from Michigan and Florida. Michigan breaking the rules is a mystery to me but with Florida it wasn't unexpected. The Republican legislature and governor broke the rules - a clever political ploy. Florida already screwed up at least one election (2000), but why allow the GOP gang to claim victory again before the national 2008 election is even held? So, Howard Dean, do you want votes from Florida and Michigan or not? How many more voters can you afford to alienate? The answer to these questions should be obvious, but then the DNC has a habit of cutting of its collective noses.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:29 pm |
  33. Mary Oklahoma

    They should count all the votes. After all, the USA is still a democracy.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:29 pm |
  34. Bud Curtis

    Jack, The Democrats should count every vote and seat every delegate. If they do not, this election will result in at least four years with John McCain as our President.
    Bud Curtis
    Miami, OK

    May 28, 2008 at 2:30 pm |
  35. Lori in Battle Creek, MI

    They have to either split the delegates 50/50 or not seat them at all. It would be unfair to do anything else.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm |
  36. mk

    If the DNC caves in to Florida and Michigan, after they knowingly broke the rules and knew the consequences, they are basically caving into the Clinton campaign – period. The DNC needs to stick to the previously set rules, or they'll have a much worse disaster on their hands with protests and lawsuits in this campaign, and more states breaking the rules next campaign – knowing the DNC's rules aren't really hard and fast. In any case – It is just a shame that the Democratic party has let their situation come to this.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm |
  37. cy gardner

    How come no one on TV ever talks about the role the Republican legislature and governor played in changing the date of Florida's primary? I'm really curious about that. cy gardner, arlington VA

    May 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm |
  38. Katiec Pekin, IL

    Jack,
    The only fair solution is to divide the delegates equally.
    The voters should not be victimn to a decision made by
    a few. The decision was supported by both candidates,
    until one was not winning, and the decision should not bow to the
    demands, distortions of that candidate.
    FL and MI should be happy to get any recognition as they were
    warned but ignored everything. And the people who decided
    this were voted in to represent the voters. So, although their
    support should be recognized, equal distribution of that
    recognition is only solution.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm |
  39. Bruce St Paul MN

    The primary votes were not legit, so they can't pretend that they were. Sorry Hillary. The rules were not followed, so total reinstatement would be unfair. Leaving them out would be unfair to the voters. So compromise must rule the day. Count the delegates as half delegates. Split the vote in some arbitrary but accepable way. Maybe a 55-45 split favoring the Clinton camp. Do not count the votes as part of the overall popular vote. Thats it. Git er done.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm |
  40. Brent in Ohio

    Michigan and Florida were told what would happen if they voted early and they went ahead and did it so the DNC should stand by their ruling. The DNC needs to take a stand if they want to have any credibility. Florida and Michigan will still be there in November and Hillary will still be running in December. Brent in Ohio

    May 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm |
  41. Douglas -- Rochester, MN

    Enforce the rules as stated! If not, every state primary (as well as politicians themselves) will "have the green light" to ignore any rule that does not suit their needs; and all will know that this can successfully be done with the proper amount of whining and complaining. Bitter pill though it may be swallow, it will send a message for all future political activities to seriously study (and follow) the rules.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm |
  42. Tyson

    You know Jack, I am about sick and tired of hearing about Michigan and Florida. I really dont understand why Florida especially always has some sort of problem with voting. It really sickens me that rules no longer matter in this country. What has made America great is the rules we have set as a society to govern ourselves. The Democrates was sitting in a great place this year to pretty much sweep all elections, But here they go again causing some sort of trife in the party that wil eventually cost them the election. We have had 8 very long years of a government not following rules or interpreting them the way they want too. I think its time we found some leaders that follow the rules a governs for us Americans and not their own ambitions. For goodness sake lets get past this and worry about serious problems we face.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm |
  43. Trish

    Let the people vote – simple as that.

    As an Irish person following the american elections from the other side of the pond, I find it incredible that any party, let alone the "Democratic" party of the USA, would contemplate depriving millions of citizens from voting for their candidate in the precursor to a presidential election. It beggars belief. Common sense (and democracy) should prevail. Unless of course, the Dems want to stay in opposition...

    May 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm |
  44. juice-Canyon Lake

    This is an easy one Jack they should seat half the delegates. That's what the republican party did this year in their primary. However, will the democrates have a backbone and do this or will they cave in to Bill and Hilliary. It makes little to change to rules in the middle of the game.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:43 pm |
  45. Sean Richardson Memphis, Tn

    They should do absolutely nothing. Remember one thing if Hillary was in the lead she would not give one “bleep” about Michigan or Florida. Everyone knew, and agreed, on the rules prior to the elections. I wish I could change the rules as I went along. Geez the world would be great.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:43 pm |
  46. Conor in Chicago

    I think they should pull out their copy of the agreement Clinton signed regarding FL and MI and say, "You agreed to this before the campaign began and only children try to change the rules during the game". They should then stand up, walk out, and let Clinton do whatever the hell she wants to.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:43 pm |
  47. George

    Jack,

    Florida and MIchigan both broke the rules, we know. Michigan's pledged delegates should be split half for each candidate and Florida should be awarded as the vote went. Obama and Clinton both did not campaign in Florida at all and both their names were on the ballot so they were both hurt the same, that is fair I believe. Only Hillary was on the Michigan ballot making it completely unfair for Barack. All of the superdelegates for both states should still be allowed to pledge their support to either candidate however, they should not be assigned to a candidate.

    George
    Michigan

    May 28, 2008 at 2:44 pm |
  48. kay morris

    Be fair to both candidates....but also remember that Senator Clinton agreed to follow the rules that were set out by the Party. All other candidates did
    Kay, Illinois

    May 28, 2008 at 2:44 pm |
  49. tomiwa

    If dems wants integrity and rule of law to prevail then it better stick to its earlier decision. You cannot subvert the entire party rules just becomes it does not favor a candidate.

    I am so sure we will not be in this situation if clinton is leading. Let common sense prevail for once. I am also wary of the precedence this will set for future contests.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:44 pm |
  50. Mike CA

    Have the backbone to back their original decision.
    Mike
    CA

    May 28, 2008 at 2:45 pm |
  51. Jerry -Roselle, Illinois

    They should help them build more cars in Michigan and
    grow more Oranges in Florida.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:45 pm |
  52. Patricia

    Well, clearly the DNC tried to do the right thing, two states defied them and the innocent Democrats who voted are getting screwed.

    Let's keep the finger pointed at the leadership in those two states who held the primaries–not the candidates themselves.

    They didn't think their votes counted before (because of the primary date) and so why does this year make any difference? They voted in a contest that was ruled invalid before they cast the first vote. It doesn't count–period. Obama will just have to campaign that much harder in those states to win them over.

    Boise, ID

    May 28, 2008 at 2:45 pm |
  53. Margarite Florida

    ABIDE BY THE RULES. Hillary you agreed to the rules for once in your priveliged life live with what you agreed to.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:46 pm |
  54. Brian from Fort Mill, S.C.

    They should either split the delegates 50-50, so it doesn't affect the outcome, or they should give them half, or a combination of the two.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:46 pm |
  55. Karen from Pennsylvania

    Nothing! Rules are rules. I hope the DNC does not buckle under from the Clinton presssure. Both Clinton and Obama agreed that those states would not count in the primaries.Of course she agreed before she found herself on the loosing end. Poor Hillary. Please DNC, put an end to it. I am so sick of hearing her an Bill blathering on with their version of the new math.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:46 pm |
  56. Chris

    We here in Florida didn't break the rules. Our Republican Govenor did.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:46 pm |
  57. Mary - PA

    Stick with the rules as set forth in the beginning. If you back down now, at the end of the process then you are basically telling every other state to go ahead next time and move your primary up as much as you want and don't worry about the consequences because the DNC is only blowing hot air. Maybe we need to change the primaries to the way the general election is done, everyone in every state votes on the same day. But until that happens, FL and MI chose to break the rules knowing ahead of time what the consequences would be and all the candidates knew this as well. Hillary sure wasn't worried about disenfrancising the voters back when she thought she wouldn't need those votes was she?

    May 28, 2008 at 2:46 pm |
  58. Bob from Richmond VA

    Jack, they should leave things as they are. Those who argue that the votes should count as they were cast conveniently forget that an undetermined number of people did not vote because they believed the primary was invalid. If the DNC goes back on their initial decision it just opens one can of worms after another. Everyone signed off on the sanctions, including Ms. Clinton. Anyone who believes that she would be 'championing' this cause if Obama had won a majority of the invalid votes in either state is as delusional as she is.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:47 pm |
  59. Ryan, Va

    The DNC should stick to the original rules agreed upon before the primary process. Also Howard Dean needs to show some leadership and come out and speak to the people of FL and Michigan and tell them why their votes in the primary will not be counted. Show them a copy of the agreement that both candidates signed saying they agreed to the DNC rules. At the end of the day the DNC and the candidates agreed to disenfranchise these voters before the primary season ever started. If they will not hold a revote then the original decision by the DNC should stand. Plain and simple

    May 28, 2008 at 2:47 pm |
  60. Greg ...Cabot AR

    I am getting sick and tired of the voters in Florida and Michigan crying that they are being disenfranchised in this election primary because they broke the rules.

    How about some support for the rest of us voters in the other 48 states that will be less-enfranchised if they are allowed a pass on their rule violation????

    The fact is, the reason they held their elections early is because they wanted to have a bigger voice in the primary process than the rest of the country.

    I think all of the delegates from Florida and Michigan should be seated at the convention and not allowed to vote for the nominee but should have one half vote for each delegate to vote on the planks that will form the Democratic platform for the future....

    If they are not punished this time..........what's next????

    Will Florida and Michigan decide to hold their general election early…..say….Labor Day….and expect another pass on the rules so they don’t feel disenfranchised again???

    May 28, 2008 at 2:47 pm |
  61. JoAnn in Iowa

    The republicans were correct on this one-give them half the delegates. If there are no consequences for jumping in line, the next time the primaries will start even sooner and the party leadership will lose all control of the process.

    There need to be rules. Hillary agreed to the rules.

    May 28, 2008 at 2:47 pm |
  62. Travis Los Angeles, CA

    Seat the delegates... on top of whoever improperly moved their primaries!

    May 28, 2008 at 3:17 pm |
  63. Chris

    Revote – both parties are to blame as the Republican party in FL "enabled" the change and then refused to revert back to the previously scheduled date. The dem party should fund a revote for both states and put this to rest. Anything less than that will taint the primary / general election.

    Then the dem party can sue the rep party for damages...we are a country of laws, they are use to that!

    Chris – Atlanta, GA

    May 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
  64. Rob BC Canada

    They should be split down the middle at best, but the rules being the measure of any law abiding society or reputable organizations operating under just and due process,gives argument that the decision was made in January.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
  65. deeCole Montg. Al

    The authority of both states are supposingly intelligent adults whom knew the consequences of an early election, the law should be upheld- unless it can be proved there was an incorrect count of the votes

    May 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
  66. Kevin in Mass

    The rules were made, everyone agreed. If Michigan and Florida had a problem it should have been ironed out prior to their over anxious primary dates. They should abide by the rules or have a do over. You can't change the terms after the fact because you don't like the results. People voted and their vote should count, but alot didnot vote because they were told it wouldn't count. Neither way is fair, but everyone knew the rules. If they aren't going to play by the rules then why not just throw out the entire primary system and let Al Gore pick a name from a hat. Hillary and Barrack would have a 50-50 or 60-40 chance at the nomination. Then we could go best two out of three, and so on.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
  67. Daniel, Loganville. Ga.

    The DNC need to stop pandering to the Clintons, because lets face it if the roles were reverse in this primary they would have told Obama the rules are the rules deal with it. This party is is serious trouble because there will be hurt feelings on both sides, and I am afraid that Sen Obama will suffer for it. Old Washington is not ready to conceed

    May 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
  68. Harry

    No doubt some type of delegate seating will need to be made. However, Michigan has to pay a higher price than Florida. Florida can make the case that a Republican Governor and legislature created this mess, Michigan can not.

    I do think that if Florida is involved in another election debacle that they be put on some type of probation. Twice in 8 years is not a good track record for a democracy.

    Harry
    Ky.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:19 pm |
  69. Wendy Theriault, Nashua, New Hampshire

    How about seating delegates in proportion to the popular vote..so long as none of those delegates are party officials or politicians without regard for their action in instigating or failure to block the change in their state's primary. Whatever their action or inaction, they failed their consitutents and it's about time someone took responsibility. That way, the voters votes get counted and the culprits are punished.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:19 pm |
  70. Ed, Bay Area

    Jack,

    1. The best compromise is this. Give Hillary the right proportion for the Florida and 60/40 in favor of Hillary in Michigan in terms of delegates.

    2. The magic number for the finish line should still be 2026.

    3. Who ever gets the majority of delegates wins.

    Math will show that Sen. Obama will still win.

    AND JACK CAFFERTY BE THE NEXT PRESS SECRETARY OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IN 2009.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:20 pm |
  71. Tommy Alejandro-Weston Florida

    Jack,

    The voters of both Michigan and Florida should target the politicians who made the decision to violate the DNC rules. Whoever made this decision should be held accountable and each state should hold that respective figure accountable. Both Obama and Clinton should not be at fault for what each state had done. Clinton should not pick and chose which rules and when such rules count. She loses the moral argument. Obama should not give in to the Clintons either. If Obama gives in, he loses the argument that he could stand up to foreign governments .

    My question remains: who made the bonehead decision to violate the rules? Vote them out of office.

    Tommy Alejandro
    Weston, Florida

    May 28, 2008 at 3:20 pm |
  72. Mary - California

    Since the Florida court has left the decision to DNC as to whether Florida and Michigan should be represented, then it is a waste of time for people to get upset. It is out of the control of the people, at this point, since the DNC will either count votes and seat delegates or not
    count the two states. Unfortunately, when instructions cannot be followed, people get hurt.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:21 pm |
  73. Dianne McCarthy

    It's really pretty simple. If these states can't redo their primaries, with both candidates running there, then the will of the people of these states is unknown. Any delegates from these states should be representing the will of their voters, so they should not be seated.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:21 pm |
  74. Annie, Atlanta

    Split the delegates in half for each candidate, and be done with it. The voters of these two states deserve to be represented. Their elected officials did this to them. They may want to be more careful when voting in the future.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:21 pm |
  75. Carol, Plainfield,Il

    The delegates should not be counted. Since the candidates signed an agreement that they would be invalid, there should be no question.

    If Hillary really cared that all the voters should have had their votes count, she would have protested before the primaries and not signed the agreement.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:21 pm |
  76. Mary - Santee CA

    Since Hillary Clinton is adamant about seating these delegates, split the delegates 50/50 between Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. However, rules are rules and Florida and Michigan knew the rules but chose to ignore them.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:22 pm |
  77. Simone from New Jersey

    Considering that 1- the DNC made the rules, 2- everyone signed an agreement to follow said rules, 3- Florida and Michigan knowingly broke the rules, and 4- the voters in Florida and Michigan knew the states were stripped of their delegates because their state leaders don't know how to follow the rules, the delegates should not be seated. It is definitely most unfair to those who did not vote if the rules are once again broken and the delegates are seated.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:22 pm |
  78. Karen from Rocklin, Ca

    The rules are the rules. The voters were told they would not count. That's why in Florida more than 2 million didn't vote. Why is it that Hilary Clinton is allowed to make this a civil rights issue? Why doesnT the media put together clips of her saying the votes don't count, saying the delegates only count not the popular vote, saying only the big states count, saying the caucous staes don't count and finally saying the popular vote including Florida and Michigan should be the reason for nominating her.I can't wait until June 4th when Barack Obama will officially be the Democratic nominee!!!

    May 28, 2008 at 3:22 pm |
  79. Jack in Chicago

    Jack,

    Hillary continues to talk about this as if she gives a rat's behind about each vote counting... In Florida, and Michigan, as in all states votes don't matter, delegates do. Sorry about that FL and MI, I didn't make the rules. If you don't like the process do something about it (you've got pleanty of time over the next four years) make your self useful!

    May 28, 2008 at 3:23 pm |
  80. Diane

    Why have rules if they are not enforced

    May 28, 2008 at 3:23 pm |
  81. Ryan, Champaign IL

    Jack: Just like the Democratic party, I don't know.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:24 pm |
  82. J McCain

    They should count all the votes and give them to Hillary as this will be the only way to keep the election close in November. People need more pandering and her and I are good at it and this helps keep peoples minds off the issues.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:25 pm |
  83. Matt Callaway in Omaha, NE

    Senator Clinton's demand that all the delegates be seated as the votes were cast is unrealistic and unfair. The DNC should seat between 1/4 and 1/2 of the delegates from both states. They should give Hillary Clinton more delegates than Obama in Florida, probably a fixed number (1,5,10). Michigan should probably be split 50/50, maybe giving a 1-5 delegate nod to Hillary Clinton just to appease her.

    Clinton and her supporters will complain unless 100% of the delegates are seated as voted. Obama and his supporters will only complain if those two states are allowed to overturn the final results excluding Michigan and Florida. The rules were laid out ahead of time, Obama planned and executed a strategy based on those rules. If Clinton didn't do the same then she's incompetent. Given the starting rules, Obama one. That's that.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:25 pm |
  84. MD in Atlanta

    Jack,

    I think the rules should stand as they are. This is something the folks in Michigan and Florida should solve during their next State elections. No one in the DNC (or the rest of the country for that matter) did anything to them.

    As for Senator Clinton, she is the one who really violated the rules. We forget that when Michigan and Florida voted there were at least 6 Presidential Candidates still in contention at the time. (Not just she and Senator Obama.) So who knows how those votes would have really gone if they HAD played by the rules.

    Stripping them of the delegates should stand and she should get nothing for ignoring the DNC rules. I can tell you that if it was the other way around Senator Obama wouldn't get JACK...

    May 28, 2008 at 3:26 pm |
  85. Steve in Fayetteville, Tn.

    The folks in Florida and Michigan HAVE FULL RIGHTS to vote...IN NOVEMBER, the primary voting is to elect/choose reps. to the convention Party,
    If You DON'T follow the rules, Don't expect to come to the Party.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:26 pm |
  86. Mike, Ohio

    Jack, I think that what ever the outcome should be in between what they both (Hillary and Barack) are requesting. Not all but some, maybe half. Look, The Republicans are seating half of their delegates and no one is crying foul. Let’s just do that and get on with the general election. No matter how you seat them Barrack Obama have won this nomination fair and square. The more Hillary drags it on the more it hurts their chances in November. At this point I don’t even care if he puts her on the ticket........Let’s just get on with it!

    May 28, 2008 at 3:27 pm |
  87. Dennis in Gwinn, MI

    Both states have great fishing. Maybe they can have a winner takes all Bass catching contest. This process getting old enough to stink like a dead carp anyway.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:27 pm |
  88. Jonathan from Southport, CT

    Jack, I am an educated and analytical person . . . but this issue is so complicated that every time I try to get to the bottom of what happened I get dizzy and begin to have small seizures. All in all, I am a patriot of this great but currently struggling democratic republic, and if I was a resident of either of these states I would be very angered by all the legal chaos ensuing. Bottom line, if you are a citizen and registered voter in this country, you have the right to cast your vote and have it counted . . . period.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:27 pm |
  89. Valerie - St. Louis, MO

    The DNC should allow half the Florida delegation to be seated as their punishment but do not allow them to decide who the nominee is. This seems more than fair, they could then split the remaining delegates evenly. The Michigan delegates should get split evenly between the two candicates since Barack Obama's name was not on the ballot and the voters who did decide to vote if they wanted to vote Democratic had no choice but to vote for Hillary. This is the most equititable solution.

    May 28, 2008 at 3:28 pm |
  90. Dilibon Kojak Brooklyn, NY

    DIvide them half and half betwenn HRC and BHO and call it the day! And let Clinton go back to the Senate or in the campaign trail as a good cheerleader for the RDC!

    May 28, 2008 at 3:31 pm |
  91. Greg Pottstown Pa

    17 other states moved their primary dates up and the DNC is seating those delegates. Why not seat fl and mi too.

    BO made a bad judgment call in mi. HRC should not be striped of any delegates because he made a bad call. Just shows that he has bad judgment. I can't believe anyone actually thought those people would not get a say at all.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:30 pm |
  92. gwinn

    They had better be very very very carefull I think about 35% of the democrate party is very unhappy with its party.
    Hey! The United States is good and known for braking the rules. I say business as usual might be the smart way if they want the White
    House in November.

    Gwinn
    Oregon

    May 28, 2008 at 4:30 pm |
  93. liz - washington dc

    Count them ALL – should have a re-vote! Florida voters came out to vote in record numbers – why aren't the networks telling their audience the facts about results in Florida? Over 1.5 million voters in FL, they cared even knowing that their vote won't count. If you don't count their vote, why should they come out to vote in Nov.? And if Obama is the nominee, why should they vote for a candidate that didn't support counting their vote the first time?

    May 28, 2008 at 4:42 pm |
  94. LA WOMAN

    what Hillary and Obama agreed to, in the beginning of this contest.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:42 pm |
  95. Anders Scooper

    The Democratic Party is made up of the voters. Hillary didn't campaign in Florida and the voters voted for her because she was thier choice. This is not about Hillary or Obama but it's about the votes of the people counting the way they voted. The Republicians moved up the election and it was no fault of the people. These votes should count as voted. A party that does not listen to it's people is flawed. Obama chose to remove his name from the ballot in Michigan and the votes should count as voted as well.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:43 pm |
  96. Gerry

    Split them 50-50, seat them and let's get on with life.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm |
  97. clbrune, Portland Oregon

    If you are going to count caucuses (which penalize voters who, say, have to go to work for a living) which only include those who make an extra effort to vote, then you should count those folks who bothered to vote in Florida and Michigan.

    The DNC should not punish the voters for what the state parties did/were forced to do.

    Work something out with the state parties, but count the millions of voters who did their best to be a part of this election!

    May 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm |
  98. Ruth McInerney

    Please tell them to go home and wait for November when their vote will count only a little more because of the Electoral College.
    Ruth McInerney
    Samson, AL

    May 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm |
  99. Chip Weinstein - Florida

    Follow the rules!!! No doubt about it!!!

    May 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm |
  100. Jan

    The DNC needs to enforce their own rules! Yes, it is terrible to the voters of MI and FL that sanctions were put in affect when their respective local state Dem Officials broke the rules. So, all those voters should be angry at their state party officials and stop whining and suing the DNC. They should give their local officials the boot. As for mediation of the current situation, there most likely will not be an outcome that would satisfy either candidate, so Saturdays meeting may not accomplish anything. In addition, there may be voters in each state that didn't go to the polls on the primary day as they knew their vote wouldn't count anyway. What happens to the voice of that unheard group?

    May 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm |
  101. Will

    The REPUBLICAN legislators moved the primaries in these states. It's time that small states that do not look like the overall country took a back seat, instead of allowing four small states to give momentum to the far left.

    All the delgates should be seated according to what they won.

    Florida had a fair election and Obama did run ads in that State.

    In Michigan Clinton should get what she won and the rest should be unpledged.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm |
  102. Nikole

    They should be split 50/50. I have family in FL that did not vote because they had been told their vote would not count. And only one cadidate was on the ballot in MI. It is only fair that they split the delegates in half.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:45 pm |
  103. Xavier, Saint Louis, MO

    Jack,
    The DNC shouldn't do anything, but enforce the rules the Obama and Clinton campaigns agreed to follow before this race started. Why make rules if you’re not going to follow or enforce them?
    You don't change the rules of the game in the fourth quarter with less than 50 seconds left on the clock.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:45 pm |
  104. Michelle, Boston, MA

    I do not think either state should be seated/counted. Bottom line, they knew what was at steak, prior to voting. It was very clear and the Dem candidates agreed. Had Hillary "wrapped up" this whole thing in Feb, as she promised, and it was Obama wanting tohave them seated, Bill would be crying foul about that instead of his song and dance now.

    I can only hope the Committee sticks to their word and does not seat the states. It would make the party a total joke.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:45 pm |
  105. Krista, San Diego, CA

    The rules were set. There is nothing that needs to be done.

    But the voters in FL & MI should do something about their politicians resonsible for their votes not counting!

    May 28, 2008 at 4:54 pm |
  106. Timothy - Orlando

    Florida and Michigan knew and accepted the sanctions of changing the election. This is about Hillary trying to steal the nomination from Obama. I am so sick of this. If the DNC changes the rules, I will leave the Democratic party for good.

    If Hillary is the nominee, I will also vote Republican in November.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:55 pm |
  107. burley mitchell

    Kick them out and let them vote Republican again.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:55 pm |
  108. Susan MO

    Common sense........Florida & Michigan votes should count. They are part of this country.

    Clinton should get the super delegates b/c she is the one who worked for the people of Florida & Michigan so hopefully they could vote,

    Obama supporters, why are so many of you negative?

    We need a democrat for president.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:55 pm |
  109. Mike Warren, Columbus Ohio

    Give Hillary what she wants. Its all she'll accept anyway.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:55 pm |
  110. Ed

    The States must be penalized as the guidelines have stated and all candiddates had already agreed to way back when the issue was first brought forth,then a split among the allowed delgates at most 55% Clinton to 45% Obama. Clinton absolutely should not get all the delegates as she is foolishly looking for. The process will be completed and Hillary can go back to New York or West Virginia or Kentucky or PA or whereever else she claims she's from.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:56 pm |
  111. Amy from MIchigan

    Michigan and Florida should not be counted! Our elected officials knowingly broke the rules, and should have to live by the rules. I for one will be voting against my governer, Granholm, in the next governor's race because of this blatant disregard for me, the voter.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:56 pm |
  112. Scot - Fairfield, CA

    I think they should give each state 25% of their delegate count because they are expecting 50% which is too much. Even this solution is too generous. Second, they should leave the delegate count requirement the same, not increase it.

    First you say the nominee has to reach 2,026 delegates, now after Saturday it could increase? That's total BS and unfair to Obama who is only approximately 50 delegates away.

    How can they change the rules at the end of the primaries? It isn't fair to Obama who followed the rules. Florida and Michigan knew the consequences of their actions and I don't think it sends a good message to the other 48 states that followed the rules. They will feel slighted and the relationship between the states could be strained. I don't think the Democratic Party is going to survive, if they change the rules now.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:57 pm |
  113. Dana Johnson Kensington Maryland

    Hi Jack, I think Hillary should be allowed to seat Florida and Michigan, but only if she pays Obama fifty million bucks out of her own pocket. If she wants this so bad, she should be willing to buy the votes. after all it doesn't really have anything to do with the voters, only their votes. Besides having fifty million dollars less might make her seem more like one of the working class she claims to represent.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:57 pm |
  114. Rob

    fair distribution of the delegates Jack. But no awarding of popular vote. MI Obama wasn't on the ballot and FL they knew going in it was a straw vote. Many registered Democrats didn't even show up in FL. I believe they will come up with an equitable distribution but no popular vote can be included to be fair.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:57 pm |
  115. Independent99999

    Don't teach my kids that changing rules in the middle of the game is fine to favor a liar lady Hillary

    Adhere to the rules signed by ever rule changing, ever lying, ever twisting ignorant desperate woman Hillary

    BTW – Can you run a question "Do you think Hillary commits a Suicide Soon?" I have a feeling Hillary will commit Suicide soon from the sore loss.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:57 pm |
  116. Marylander for Obama

    This is completely ridiculous. It's nothing more than a desperate attempt on the part of HRC to stay in the race. I really need someone to explain to me how any of this is fair. Come on, seriously? Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan and she wants the delegates to be seated based on the results. Here's an idea, how about we do rock, paper, scissors to decide the Democratic nominee?

    May 28, 2008 at 4:57 pm |
  117. Wil DLS

    This is a rather sensitive issue for the DNC for two major reasons. First, removing a state's right to vote at a primary may seem undemocratic, and second, removing the states' right to vote at a primary may jeopordize the Democrats' chances of getting many votes in the general election. Who would want to vote for a party that reomoved the states' right to vote?

    May 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm |
  118. Maryanne, Philadelphia

    What should the Democrats’ rules committee do about Michigan and Florida?
    They should check with Sen. Clinton. She seems to have an endless supply of rules. A new day, a new rule.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm |
  119. Roland, Atlanta

    One option would be halve the delegates for both states not just for this primary but for the next primary season as well.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm |
  120. Buck in CO

    I think the DNC should follow the lead of thier candidates: reverse thier earlier statements and seat 100% of the delagates from Michigan and Florida. Flip-flop and pretend the rules don't apply to you, just like any good Democrat would do.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm |
  121. gerald strother

    delegates should not be counted. Since the candidates signed an agreement that they would be invalid, there should be no question .Stripping them of the delegates should stand and she should get nothing for ignoring the DNC rules. The more Hillary drags it on the more it hurts their chances in November. and if the do
    No matter how you seat them Barrack Obama have won this nomination fair and square. Cliniton it is not about you have you no shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    May 28, 2008 at 4:59 pm |
  122. Chuckles

    THIS IS PERFECT!

    Imagine sports teams adopting the same recordkeeping. . .

    If any of your opponents break league rules, you can remove them from your win-loss count!

    NFL teams can play Cincinnati every single Sunday, and never suffer!

    NBA teams could play. . .EACH other and remain undefeated thru the entire season!

    THIS IS STUPID, YES?

    Just as stupid as allowing states who CLEARLY understood the consequences of their actions seat delegates due to some "feel-good" sentiment.

    "Oh, Florida is so perpetually disenfranchised. . ." So, to lessen that disenfranchisement, did they consider LISTENING to the DNC, and keeping their primary RIGHT WERE IT WAS?

    Were Michigan Dems attending the last Hash Bash in Ann Arbor?

    So, set the example, DNC–you'll either seat the delegates, thereby losing face and any credibility, or you'll stand by your own rules, and petulant states will have to take a time out.

    Ball's in your court.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:59 pm |
  123. Lana, Ca.

    How can they not be counted? I can't believe that we would even consider not counting them. It is not the fault of the people that rules were changed. It seems to me that if the Dems do not fully count the will of the people in those states they they will be commiting political suicide, plain and simple and everyone agrees with that I am positive! Looks like becoming an independant is my new option then

    May 28, 2008 at 4:59 pm |
  124. CJ

    Personally Nothing, The rules and penelties where clear. But since they will try and sort things out, go the limit under the law. Seat what they can . They all signed agreement not to campaign. Pennalize those that did campaign . Keep everything simple as possible. And yes Hillary will still be upset, but the facts of the whole thing still show Obama the winner if the rules are followed.

    May 28, 2008 at 4:59 pm |
  125. Balabanto

    The real issue here is that the superdelegates need to make their choice before May 31.

    It doesn't matter who they choose.

    What the people of the United States want, beyond anything else, is this:

    They want this primary to be decided by the delegates, and NOT by the DNC!!!!!!

    It is imperative that all superdelegates weigh in before the end of the meeting on Saturday.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:00 pm |
  126. Caleb, Missouri

    Last time I checked there are 50 states, not 48. (Or 57, as Obama will try and tell you)

    Seat them all.

    Florida’s and Michigan’s VOTERS did nothing to get punished and it’s ridiculous to not seat them in such a tight race for the nomination.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:00 pm |
  127. Todd

    Reward them for breaking the rules. This is America after all. Isn't that what we do here?

    May 28, 2008 at 5:00 pm |
  128. anonymous - nyc

    this is the longest election period that i can remember and i'm so tired of it.....i almost don't care who wins anymore!!

    count the stupid florida votes – obama and clinton were both on the ballot and the people of florida should not be punished. as for michigan, all you can do is divide the delegates evenly.

    the rules are ridiculous anyway – why does this have to go on for months and months and months? either all the states should count and we decide at the convention or hold the primaries on the same day and we'll know our candidate within 24 hours. what a waste of time and money!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm |
  129. Michael - Chicago, IL

    All candidates agreed to these rules in the beginning. Would she be fighting so hard if the roles were reversed?

    The answer would be no.

    If they seat them according to the vote, then that defeats the reasoning for rules and laws in the first place. Not good for a Presidential candidate to waffle so badly.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm |
  130. Tom in Desoto Texas

    Do what they said they would, not seat anyone from the two states, to do differently would show the world the democratic party has no principles. Anything that gives Clinton the nomination will result in a McCain landslide. The Clinton's Scorched Earth Policy will burn the democratic party so badly it will make Sherman's March to the Sea appear to have been a brushfire.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm |
  131. Bill Fort Lauderdale

    Jack, they should do exactly like Obama did in Missouri while he was getting his butt whip in WV they should stand at a podium and read the names of GREAT and DEAR friends and then wait for them to stand up so he knew who they were. Jack I used to like you but you are just a pandering old man that should go home already. By the way I don't like Hillary any better than Obama.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm |
  132. Darren S.

    According to DNC rules, they will lose half their delegates. It's real sinple, they have to play by the rules.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm |
  133. Susan

    Hi,

    FL and MI broke the rules. There should be consequences. They should not be counted. If they want to count the delegates, then DNC should split 50/50. It is only fare to Obama who played by the rules.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm |
  134. makaveli

    The votes shouldn´t be counted..Rules are rules.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:02 pm |
  135. Kevin Keener

    It is good to see so many comments supporting adherence to the rules. I'm not opposed to a compromise for seating some of the Florida and Michigan delegates based on DNC rules, but Obama should definitely not be hurt for following the rules. It is amazing to see some posts suggesting Obama should be penalized for taking his name off the ballot in Michigan. That is absurd. In Florida Hillary would have won but I think Obama would have closed the gap some if he was allowed to campaign. His track record has been pretty good at closing gaps when he campaigns in a state.

    I am surprised there aren't as many Clinton supporters making comments like there have been on other articles. I am an Obama supporter but if Clinton fairly won the nomination I would vote for her in November. The Clinton supporters that say they would not vote for Obama in the general election or the people trying to start a write in campaign for Hillary (an idea that would doom the Democrats in November) need a reality check. Shouldn't a main criteria for voting for a particular candidate be based on his or her policies? On policy issues Clinton and Obama have very limited differences when you compare either to McCain. Do these Hillary supporters claiming sexism and a conspiracy really want a president who is going to appoint conservative supreme court justices and one who will stay in Iraq with a victory at all costs mentality. The sexism claim is almost laughable considering racism has played a far bigger role in the nomination process ( see Kentucky and West Virginia).

    May 28, 2008 at 5:02 pm |
  136. Christine

    I agree with most everyone else on this issue. Do not allow these delegates to be seated in full. Hillary Clinton is beyond desperate, she's like an old girlfried who will slash your tires and burn your clothes on the front lawn if she doesn't get her own way. She and the other candidates agreed to the rules to not participate or campaign in either Michigan or Florida.

    I voted and live in Florida but I know the state made the wrong choice in moving up the primary. Too bad, so sad – it's time to give each state half it's delegates and nothing else. If you don't follow rules, you should not be rewarded. Shame on Clinton for not being a good sport about the process! She's making any opportunity to future female candidates to be looked at as desperate and unable to win on their own merits.

    Melbourne, Florida

    May 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
  137. Lotus

    There is no way she should be given an advantage in Michigan when his name wasn't even on the Ballot. The mere suggestion is preposterous. Let her have an advantage in Florida in proportion to the popular vote. Do you think that will quiet her? Hardly. Stay tuned for the new math.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
  138. kenny cole

    THEY SHOULD JUST FOLLOW THE RULE SIMPLE KENNY FROM HOUSTON

    May 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
  139. Jane

    Ideally, the rule was that the delegations would not be seated and I think it is a bit weak to change this.

    However, the DNC appears to be caving into pressure and under that scenario I would like to see:
    1. Both delegations sat in full, divided 50/50 between each candidate

    2. Given no superdelegates

    May 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
  140. Brian in Austin, TX

    Jack,
    They should find a way to seat the delegates, but do so in such a way that is fair to both candidates. For example, how is it fair to Obama, whose name was not on the Michigan ballot, for those votes to be counted? Especially with the race close to being finished, the Dems need to start looking ahead towards the general election against their real opponent: John McCain.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
  141. Julie, NY

    How about two new primaries? That seems fair- that way all voters get a legitimate chance to vote.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
  142. robert roswell, ga

    What should they do Jack? Or what will they do?

    They should stick to the rules and tell Clinton to stop tearing the party apart. Leave everything the way it is. Stick to their guns – so to speak.

    However, they will make concessions to try to appease Clinton. This, of course, is a waste of time. If they give her an inch she &
    Bill will be out on the airwaves trying to take a mile.

    The DNC is too weak willed. They are going to end up legitimizing her decision to take the fight to the Convention but increasing the number of delegates needed to clinch.

    If this goes to the Convention – blame Dean and the DNC (do nothing committee)

    May 28, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
  143. Miguel Gomez

    SIMPLE: Till the last vote is counted !! That's true democracy not the mumbo jumbo the GOP in Florida and Mr Dean are trying to push. Let's re vote in August. They have elections again in this month both States, if the Obamaniacs feel they are so sure to win, let's have a re vote in August and let the chips fall where they may. I'm sure Mr Martin from CNN would hate that idea (I'm not fond of this guy).

    May 28, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
  144. El

    They should not be seated. The rules are the rules!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
  145. Julie, NY

    How about punish all the states that moved their primaries up? I live in one of those states, and I think that if FL and MI are punished, we should be punished too. The Democratic Party needs to stop playing favorites, deciding who gets to go first and who's votes actually count.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:05 pm |
  146. Krista, San Diego, CA

    The rules were set. There is nothing that needs to be done.

    But the voters in FL & MI should do something about their politicians resonsible for their votes not counting!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm |
  147. Mike

    If the DNC bows down to the Clintons and robs this election from Obama because there whining then this would then be a bogus nominee. This would then create a scenario that any state can then decide when to have their primary or caucus without worrying about any DNC sanctions. To all you Obama supporters, if he is robbed of this nomination then we his supporters should back the closest candidate to his thought patterns of going after corporate america and taking back this country for the citizens of the USA and that is Nader.
    A vote for Clinton or McCain is a vote for corporate america and a vote for our same corporate bought government agendas.
    A vote for Obama or Nader is a vote for change and a dismantling of our corporate bought government.
    GO OBAMA '08 '12 or NADER '08 '12

    May 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm |
  148. RonF

    If you commit a crime you do the time, right?

    May 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm |
  149. Martin from Nebraska

    Maybe Democrats should act like Republicans for once. After all, Republicans stripped Michigan and Florida of half of their delegates, and no one was screaming "Count our votes!" This is what should have been done a long time ago. It may seem like taboo these days, but the Republican Party did something right that the Democrats did not. Count half the votes and Obama and Hillary will be happy!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm |
  150. David

    The popular vote can't be an indicator in either state. It was made clear that their delegates would be stripped and there is no way to indicate how many voters stayed home assuming there was no point.

    Since Obama's name was not on the ballot in Michigan, the only thing you can do is split the delegates 50/50 there. In Florida, it should be split 70/40 as Clinton was a clear winner and both candidates had their names on the ballot.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm |
  151. Pete Tiernan

    As a Michigan voter who did not have the opportunity to vote for Barack Obama, I'm offended every time Hillary Clinton spouts off about counting all the votes and not disenfranchising voters. If she manages to muscle her way into counting Michigan, I'll feel like a disenfranchised non-voter. And I'm equally irked by all this talk about winning the popular vote. That depends on including her shutout victory over Obama in Michigan. Yeah...right... What do she and Bill think we are? Idiots?! This is the very kind of grimy, dumbed-down politicking we despised so much about the Republicans in 2000 and 2004. If the Democratic Party makes a back-room deal to get Clinton atop the ticket, I'm a McCain voter.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm |
  152. Diane, Marco Island, FL

    I voted in the Florida primary knowing full well that my vote was not going to "count" as a result of the Republicans in charge of the state blackmailing the Democrats – if you want a paper trail on voting we are going to move the primaries to January and make a mess for the DNC. Those who say their vote should count knew the rules going into it and those who stayed home because their vote wouldn't count, they made that choice as well. Therefore, no delegates should be seated period!
    PS to Hillary supporters – I voted for John Edwards – should I be mad and stay home in November since my candidate isn't the nominee?

    May 28, 2008 at 5:07 pm |
  153. Eleanora Feucht

    I think there should be a nw election in those states. The pople who voted or would have voted did not break the Manic Howard Dean's rule. Dean should punish those who broke the rule, not the people who voted in good faith because the name/names were on the ballot.
    Those who decided to have the election before their appointed time, should be the ones to pay or they will do it again next year.
    If Dean insists on disenfranchising these citizens, hd night as well hand the presidency to the Republicans. Especially in Florida where the people have alrady been robbed of a fair vote. They may not vote at all. Is this what Dean wants? If so, he is no a good democrat because "every vote should count" is the Democratic way.
    MT. LAUREL, N.J.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:07 pm |
  154. Vincent Palermo

    Jack this is just plain ridiculous all they have to do is set a new date and have both candidates on the ballot this time and do a re-do vote! I mean come on already. But in my own opinion why should we give Florida and Michigan a second chance for breaking the rules. Enough with Florida already and that whole state counting votes or not counting vote and now voting too early.... Give me a break!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:07 pm |
  155. David from West Virginia

    I believe that all delegates should and will be seated at the convention.......

    Hillary will win the general election come this November.

    GO HILLARY!!!!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:07 pm |
  156. Charlie

    I can honestly say that if you're an Obama backer you dont want them to consider it, and if your a Clinton backer you do want them to count them.

    I dont believe their should be two sets of rules anyway. What the heck is an election process for if everyones vote does not count. Why do we have these stupid Super Delegates and the Electoral College. It was intended because we, Americans, were do stupid to vote, and weren't sure of the voting process.

    Hello its 2008, 21st Century and we, the Americans, still have no say who gets voted into the Office of the President of the United States. Sure the political guru's will say the electoral college goes with the popular vote, well then, why the heck do we have them.

    Let Michigan and Florida's voice be heard!!!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
  157. John From Boston

    Florida has it is Michigan with the uncommitted to Obama all votes count for half! But the delegations cannot use the mini bar or room service in Denver and it five per room! And you know what would happen? Obama would get a massive amount of endorsement just after May 31 both from uncommitted super delegates and from Clinton rank. This is going to put Obama very close to the edge just in time for the last primaries. Checkmate!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
  158. Margaret

    Obama blocked a revote in these two states effectively counting on the DNC to disenfranchise democratic voters. He should not be rewarded for this strategy.

    A revote would have been the best strategy, but now that Obama blocked this we are left with the option of counting MI and FL or pretending that these states do not exist. Had Obama not been offered the option of a revote, I would agree that the rules are the rules. But as it stands I think we need to count those delagates, every one of them. To do otherwise would be unfair to the people in these two states.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
  159. Randy from Cupertino, CA

    Rules are Rules. You break them, you pay for it. It is up to the voters of Michigan and Florida to make sure their party does not do it again. I am pretty sure that it Hillary & Co., pushing for these two states to be included. Sour Grapes is more like it.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
  160. Preston of Denver, CO

    Absolutely nothing. The method for deciding candidates in the primaries may be unfair to states late in the process, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable to violate the agreed upon rules because of it. The fact that Florida went ahead and violated them anyway, full well knowing the consequences and then tried playing the victim is absolutely shameless and only one more reason why their delegates shouldn't be seated. If Florida and Michigan wanted their votes to count they should have stuck to the rules like everyone else has.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
  161. ken

    Revote to determine winner. If you do not. Well obviously you Democrate do not want our votes here in Florida. We will vote for Mcclain.

    Thank you,

    May 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
  162. Ilene MIch

    This is not at all fair to Obama. One, he didn't campaign here in Michigan. Two, he wasn't on the ballot and three…..many people didn't even bother to vote because they were told "Your vote won't count" I believe a do-over is the only fair way. Hillary would not take MI a second time around. She knows it and that is why she is pushing so hard. Go away desperate Hillary and Bill.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
  163. Gene, TX.

    Jack, what people forget to acknowledge is that both presidential candidates agreed and signed not reward the two states for their anti-party behaviours, but now, HRC is succeeding in moving the goal post in the middle of the game. Obama did not campaign in Florida nor his name on the Mich ballot in obedience to the party rule. In-fact, i think that she has almost succeeded in destroying the party and dislocating our beautiful nations political process. The outcome of the Saturday DNC meeting might be ugly and Hillary may not be forgiven by history.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  164. Marie Hopper

    Democrats can't play by the rules they make themselves-Great Leadership!!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  165. Muhammad

    Split the state delegates in half between Obama and Clinton. So Hillary won't stop complaining and Barack can be near the finish line.

    Brookyln, New York .

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  166. Rick from Citrus Springs, Fl

    Yes the politicians of Mich and Fl broke the rules, the people did not.
    Just because we had hard heads in charge why should my vote not
    count. If the votes of these two states do not count then we are
    going to possibly be represented by someone chosen by the other
    48 states. The old saying "Taxation witout representation is tyranny"
    What do you call a presidential nominee not elected by all of the
    states.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  167. jc

    I think that the democrats should stick to what was agreed upon in the beginning. Isn't the argument against Bush regarding him going into the Iraq War based on him agreeing to one thing but doing another. The position here is not about people but about the position. These candidates are running for the office of Commander and Chief of this great nation. Should we, the people be awakened to Bush's "flipping the script" on the Iraq war but expected to ignore this "flipping." Stand behind your word. If changing the rules midstream is unacceptable for Replublicans so it is for Democrats as well. Our own legal system holds us to our signatures/contracts. Big or small, rich or poor we all agree that our word is our bond. jc/Maryland

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  168. Sid from CA

    Why doesn't CNN take a poll of registered Democrats and Non-Aligned voters from Michigan and Florida to get a grasp of how people feel NOW? Did it ever occur to you that if your candidate's name is not on a ballot, there is no incentive to vote?

    The only logical solution was a revote of the Michigan and Florida primaries and stripping the state party leaders of their superdelegate and DNC status.

    Since nobody wants to pay for this, the only alternative was to wait until the end of the primary season. Why? Because the DNC now has an idea of how much they can hand on a silver platter to Clinton without it affecting the current situation. It will make them look generous, yet keep the nomination from her.

    Politics at its best.

    Somebody should tell Geraldine Ferraro something about the DNC using elitism and nepotism in this situation.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  169. Sue, Vienna, VA

    In raising our children my husband and I tried to instill in them that disobedience brought consequences, consequences being some sort of punishment that fit the "crime". The good people of Florida and Michigan (as well as Hillary Clinton) KNEW what those consequences and subsequent punishment would be! How, in everything holy, can the rules change and still be fair to both candidates?! And let's be honest, would Hillary be pressing for this re-instatement if their positions were reversed?

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  170. Kevin MN

    It seems to me that the rules were clear from the beginning. However, it isn't the voters fault that the primarys were held early, I think a fair divide between the actual votes cast and recent polls would be a fair outcome but only seating half of the delegates. This gives punishment, but still lets the voter's voices be heard.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  171. Jimmy Mack

    It is simple us apply the LAW!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  172. Deborah

    They shouldn't get any delegates counted at all. I live in Michigan and didn't vote in the primary because Barack's name wasn't even on the ballot and was told that it was just a "beauty" contest. There are many in my state and Florida as well that did the same thing..didn't bother voting because we were told it didn't count. Therefore, any results are not a true and fair reflection of voters wishes.

    Hey..let them come to the party in Denver...they can sit there...but not vote. They will be the perfect example for states in the future who want to be bold enough to go against the rules. The rules are set up for a reason...so that there is a fair representation of America in the early primaries. This is an important issue and no states should be trying to push up their dates to alter this.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  173. Kashar

    Do whatever was agreed upon by all the participants before the whole thing started. It is that simple.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  174. Jason Lenoir - Raleigh, N.C.

    The Florida and Michigan delegate fight doesn’t make any logical common sense at all. You broke the rules – your vote is irrelevant. The fair solution – follow the rules – don’t count the delegates. Both candidates (Hillary seems to have forgotten this) signed an affidavit – a formal sworn statement – to adhere by DNC delegate rules.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  175. larry

    It's real simple. Rules are rules. What part of that does anybody not get? But there will be a compromise, and Clinton will use the results toward her cause – however far that will go. Whatever.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
  176. Dawn

    Absolutley nothing should be done with Michigan and Florida .There are several reasons, but the two that are at the forefront are as follows; they intentionally broke the rules and were not concerned about it their vote count until Hillary was behind inconjunction with that what kind of message are we sending outr children – don't like the score of the game just call a "do over". Secondly, Obama was not on the ballot in Michigan so technically Hillary won by default not an election process, if she is actually concerned about the voices of the voters in Michigan she would have made a push push towards another election with all candidates on ballot.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  177. Jose Roberto Carvalho

    Why Florida broke the rule? Who authorized? Who benefited? Tell us the reasons which are more important so people can really understand what was behind this decision.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  178. Charley

    Not sure how the Dems should handle this, but it should be handled.
    It would be a terrible thing if the voters of Florida and Michigan did not get a voice.
    This government has been one of the worst in menory, why should this primary be any different,the history books will be full of this in a few years. Pease let the voice of America be heard.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  179. Jessica

    Florida and Michigan broke the rules and knew what the consequences would be. Now, Mrs. Clinton is re-writing the rules once again to accommodated her failing campaign. I would like to ask her if she was in the lead would she be so willing to let Mr. Obama play catchup? No-she wouldn't. The Clinton's are playing every card possible to convince her supporters that she is the victim. Let's get one thing straight Mr. and Mrs. Clinton, the true victims are the millions of Americans that don't get a vote because the higher ups got greedy. It's a shame but their delegates shouldn't count.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  180. Justin

    If the votes are not counted beware! Obama just may be 2.3 million votes shy of winning the General Election....food for thought!

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  181. KandiceDove

    There is no fair way to seat the delegates of the two states. By seating the delegates in some way punishes those states who abided by the rules. The Clintons have a double standard & it's unfair to the American voters. Hillary's first scenario was to convince the pledged delegates to switch their vote despite the fact that the vote was a refelction of the voters. Now that she's losing, she wants every vote to count. Clinton supporters wake up & smell the coffee.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  182. Richard

    It gripes me that even considering the question penalizes the candidate that played by the rules – Obama.

    But, if you do have to do something, how about gathering them all together and treating them as a caucus group. All would be unpledged and each candidate would have a specified period to make a pitch. The delegates would then vote.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  183. Abel

    If the demo will flip-flop on the their own decisions, what will they do on national security issues?. The last time I noticed rules changes in middle of a game was with my children playing "Go Fish". We all know the rules before now and must adhere.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  184. kathy kay

    I think the democratic party should decide to seat the delegates of the two states, if Obama was in Hillary's position he would have been singing the same tune and I don't believe Obama will defeat Mc caine in November he doesn't have the experience. I think the media is responsible for what is happening to Hillary, its like she was assassinated just for being a woman. I hope the Democrats can handle eight more years out of the white house.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  185. JM - Madison, WI

    The only really fair way to go about this would be to have each of the states revote with both candidates on the ballots, with the states being able to seat half of their delegates based on the results. The problem with this is that this whole mess is supposed to be resolved at the meeting June 3rd and it would be difficult to put the word out about a revote in that amount of time.

    In the interest of not disenfranchising the voters in FL and MI, as well as settling the dispute, once and for all, as to who has the popular vote, it would seem that a postponement of the convention might be in order until this matter can be resolved and the party can be unified behind a single candidate without any degree of ambiguity.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
  186. K. Spears, Johnson City, Texas

    I wont go into the reasons we have delegates of any kind. But to vote and have that vote counted is every Americans duty and right, I don't give a care about what rules the DNC or RNC say were broken. I would rather their stupid rules be disallowed than to have millions of American Votes NOT counted. It is getting to the point that the DELEGATES get more attention than WE THE PEOPLE. Brings to mind some regime changes we have seen in other parts of the world.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
  187. Nikola K, Fremont, NH

    Rules are rules. Hillary can bellyache all she wants now, but she and all the other candidates signed off, knowing that Florida and Michigan wouldn't count. There was no problem with that at the beginning of the campaign when she all but had the nomination. Now that it's slipping farther and farther out of her reach, the rules should be bent in typical Clinton fashion. Forget the delegates, count the vote only. The people can't be penalized for the wayward politicians seeking greater importance in the primaries.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
  188. Bernie Moore-Knowles

    Hmmmm...................both states had suspect elections – not at all fair. If you are not going to have a revote? Then, divide them equally and THEN? Go back to New York, HRC WJC.

    Bernie Moore-Knowles
    Papa'aloa, Hawai'i

    May 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
  189. caven

    revote in those 2 states and have the state government pay for it. seat only half the delegates as well as punishment. all by june 3rd

    May 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
  190. Matthew

    It's not absurd to penalize the voters for voting. They were stupid for voting. And what of those who would have voted but stayed home b/c they knew their votes wouldn't count? They would be disenfranchised under a scenario in which we seated the delegates to reflect the results.

    May 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm |